22 Design Axl bindings damaging front part of sole of boots

[telebro]

yeah there is a little wiggle room when the boot is clamped in, maybe it's just time for some new boots, thanks for the advice

[easyjim]

This is my right toe after a half day on my axl's

right toe

this my left boot with an incision from the flex plate after a half day on the axl's

left toe engaged in binding

left toe with a slight flex shows protuding sole material

I think I found the answer thanks to my left boot which was less damaged than the right. Whether it is the size, year or whatever the factor may be, the attached pictures illustrate the problem or incompatibility between my T1's and the axl. My duckbill toe goes over the flex plates pointed edge and when you flex (even just moving the boot with your hand while engaged in the binding) you can see the flex plate edge cut into the vibram sole and push the rubber in front of the incision left by the flex plate edge forward making it protrude or bulge which would cause it to be damaged rather rapidly. You can see what I mean as the incision shows where the flex plate cut in. As I pull up the boot heel with one hand you can see the vibram toe material bulging forward as the flex plates edge is incised in the boot in front of the the three pins on the scarpa and the vibram material in front of the incision is pushed forward as the heel is lifted.

I skied these boots on targa's about 30 days and had no wear whatsoever and skied them hard. For whatever reason my T1's and an axle can't work together. I wish I knew why so that I could use them. Was a real pain to buy a whole new setup, have it professionally mounted and then find out it ruins your boots. All parties were helpful in returning/replacing gear but it sucked to be unable to use one of the few good 75mm bindings around.

[easyjim]

For the people who have had this problem:
Do you have a certain year boot or a certain size as I'm hypothesizing that the duckbill comes out to far on my boot for this binding which led to the damage? I'm 6'5 and wear a 29.0 T1 and the axle set in the second or middle pin position. I could feel the loss of control on my right foot with less of a rocker after a few hours which led me to inspect the binding and boot and notice the damage done.

Also, for those of you who do not have this problem does your duckbill sit further back in the binding? It seems that a minor flex of my boot causes the edge of the flex plate to dig in so the damage is unavoidable. I can't imagine that technique should be at fault as no other binding has had similar results. I would consider the cost of reluctantly updating my scarpas if I could be assured that I wouldn't have the same result

[dnt_upton]

How old are your bindings?

I believe 22D had this problem and it was the flex plates, which they fixed it. Or something like that. You might contact them directly.

[easyjim]

Bindings were this years model and the flex plates were the newest version. They updated the flex plate to address this issue and the newer ones carry the 22 designs logo which mine did. This was the first thing I discussed when I contacted them so unfortunately that is not the simple answer

[Harris]

You didn't by any chance narrow the width of your duckbills at some previous time, did you? The one pic with the penny kinda looks like the boot has been sanded. I've got 20 year old, worn-out Garment Garas (was on NTN before) that I've been exclusively using in my Axls (50+ days resort) and not only is there no damage up there, but they don't go into the binding near that far. Mine overhang the plate maybe an 1/8". Their width is precisely a worn-down 74.8 mm at the pin line (using calipers). The width, or lack there of at the pin line is probably the culprit; that more than the height of toe material is what is going to determine how far into the binding the boot sits. If or when you buy new boots check that pin line width or you just might end up blowing out your new boots as well. Make sure they are a true 75mm width. Normal wear the bindings can handle, but if some finisher at the factory got over-zealous sanding to fit at the factory a new boot will crack out as well. Unless, and you would have to have some fabrication skills, you riveted some shim to one or both sides of the bale steel to take up the difference and get the boot back into the binding properly. That would work. I doubt you can fix your old boots.

[easyjim]

yeah, i never sanded them or narrowed them. Of all the cases online I have read on this everyone has been a scarpa t1 or race. I got a full refund on the binding as I paid full retail trying to support a local shop but now that i got newer t1s as a replacement I wish I could see if they line up like my other boots did. I noticed that the soles themselves were different as far as the location of the 3 pins so maybe it was just a case of a certain year of scarpas not being compatible with the axls. I have also been told that filing down the sharp edge on the flex plate can help with toe wear too.

[jcron]

I am having the same issues.

I bought new Scarpa T2 Eco's fall of 2014 is my recollection, along with new Axl bindings which I purchased thru Axl direct - at the same time - they do have the logo on the red plate - so I am told that it is the revised design.

The toe area is crumbling / falling off - my boots are size 10.

They have been used 45 or so days is my guess.

Scarpa said they are out of warranty - send them to a Cobbler - they noted Axl binding have been know to cause this problem.

22 Designs was not interested in offering a solution - they sent me some anti friction tape to put over the red plate? They noted that Scarpa used a softer sole for a few years - and this caused the problem - but then they tell me they did have the problem and fixed the issue? By looking at my boot I don't think they fixed the issue obviously.

Not to happy - new skis / boots / bindings were a big chunk of change - I am thinking the bindings are the culprit - so what do I do get new bindings and get the boot resoled?

My old t2's served me for 15 years - on Rainey Super Loops - no issues - my Merrell Ultra's are 30 years old??

very frustrating

[easyjim]

Sorry for your frustration. It really blows to drop a bunch of cash on an expensive hobby only to be in worse shape than when you bought it soon after. I had brought up the issue (read about a few instances on backcountry) before buying axl's from the authorized dealer and he assured me that it doesn't happen when mounted properly. Lo and behold the damage posted above after a half a day and I was on the dealer and 22 designs immediately with a detailed account of the damage and my demands to be at least where I was before the damage. They were both helpful but I think it's easier to illustrate unequivocal damage after a day rather than 45 which is too bad in your case. I still think it is an underlying problem for people that ski a certain style or have a certain boot that overhangs the toe piece like some scarpa's do. I came directly from targa's and never skiied an active binding so that could play some part but the bottom line is gear should not damage your gear and from my pictures you can see that just lifting the boot would cause inevitable damage. Sorry for your experience. I would contact scarpa in an email just so they know how prevalent this issue is so that maybe 22 designs will make some modification so that it stops happening. I'd still love to use there bindings but I'm considering blowing more money on a bishop BMF R with a switch plate so I can have one binding for my two sets of skis for the 500 price tag.

[jcron]

When I researched my purchase, after many years of not following the industry and options - it did not seem that there were many choices for boots - maybe a few more for bindings.

I don't know how a binding company can make a binding that is not compatible with Scarpa boots?

It is amazing they don't offer up a fix / solution for this - how small the Tele world has gotten I would think they would want to keep every die hard happy.