Xplore vs. 3pin+cables

[JohnSKepler]

All we need to do is to have Voile sell a kit using the parts from their tts system. Omit the tech toe, modify the plastic plate to accept the Xplore binding and produce a screw and glue in heel piece for the boot, and presto changejo, a hardwire Xplore system.

This is what I keep mentioning! Except, I think it would be more straightforward, at least to test the concept, to use just the cables and mount them into an Xplore binding. Last time I ordered from Varuste the Xplore bindings were less than $150 and I ordered an extra in case I came across a smoking deal on some skis. But, if someone wants to send me an extra set of cables they have laying around I'll hack something together with my spare Xplore binding, find some used skis, and see what happens.

I've been unconvinced that cables provide anything over and above a toe-bumper system for applying moment to the ski but I was in a really boring meeting yesterday and did some dynamic analysis on cable/toe-hold geometry. From the standpoint of applying forces and moments and, perhaps even more importantly, communicating feedback to the skier, cables may be a significantly better than any kind of toe-bumper or forefoot hold (meidjo, outlaw) system. It's really an obvious one so I'm thinking Rottefella is dribbling out new products so we have to keep buying stuff they invented years ago but are releasing slowly to keep their revenue stream constant.

[DG99]

The cables can impart massive forward resistance for sure, if the springs are strong, and the pivot attachment point is down and back. Probably more than bumpers, and potentially up there with just plain fixed heel! I don’t know if the Xplore boots can handle it though? I put a soft 3 pin XC boot (Fischer BCX 675) in a Switchback last night, didn’t seem like a workable combo, would end up crushing your foot. The Xplore sole is a bit more solid, I think maybe, but these boots often have pretty flexy uppers.

Probably the Dynafit Tech toe and plastic boots has more use in this case? The TTS system. The Dynafit Tech patent expired in 2010, so anyone can make them, innovation and cost savings available! The Xplore will be a monopoly for 20 years (I think, probably)

(I’m totally not an early adopter in any case.)

[randoskier]

All we need to do is to have Voile sell a kit using the parts from their tts system. Omit the tech toe, modify the plastic plate to accept the Xplore binding and produce a screw and glue in heel piece for the boot, and presto changejo, a hardwire Xplore system.

This is what I keep mentioning! Except, I think it would be more straightforward, at least to test the concept, to use just the cables and mount them into an Xplore binding. Last time I ordered from Varuste the Xplore bindings were less than $150 and I ordered an extra in case I came across a smoking deal on some skis. But, if someone wants to send me an extra set of cables they have laying around I'll hack something together with my spare Xplore binding, find some used skis, and see what happens.

I've been unconvinced that cables provide anything over and above a toe-bumper system for applying moment to the ski but I was in a really boring meeting yesterday and did some dynamic analysis on cable/toe-hold geometry. From the standpoint of applying forces and moments and, perhaps even more importantly, communicating feedback to the skier, cables may be a significantly better than any kind of toe-bumper or forefoot hold (meidjo, outlaw) system. It's really an obvious one so I'm thinking Rottefella is dribbling out new products so we have to keep buying stuff they invented years ago but are releasing slowly to keep their revenue stream constant.

You have a very skewed idea of how Norwegian companies operate.

[TheMusher]

Another insight from Utemagasinet.no.

Espen Berglund, Sales Director at Rottefella, concedes that discontinuing 75mm development in favor of NTN was a mistake.

I now think that it was a mistake when we cut our offer of 75mm bindings to make people choose NTN telemark bindings or BC bindings. Especially for Western Norway, where there is a strong tradition of going on steep trips with mountain skis, we have received strong calls to come back with a lighter 75 binding that also goes around the heel. Now we offer 100 per cent Norwegian-made binding that meets this need, says Berglund. [Rottefella 75mm with cable, my comment]

I wholeheartedly agree...

[DG99]

Another insight from Utemagasinet.no.

Espen Berglund, Sales Director at Rottefella, concedes that discontinuing 75mm development in favor of NTN was a mistake.

I now think that it was a mistake when we cut our offer of 75mm bindings to make people choose NTN telemark bindings or BC bindings. Especially for Western Norway, where there is a strong tradition of going on steep trips with mountain skis, we have received strong calls to come back with a lighter 75 binding that also goes around the heel. Now we offer 100 per cent Norwegian-made binding that meets this need, says Berglund. [Rottefella 75mm with cable, my comment]

I wholeheartedly agree...

I didn’t notice the gap. It’s true, 3 pin cable, Switchbacks or similar and T4s or equivalent leather boot (is there one?) slots nicely between the chunky tele and more XC oriented BC stuff. The NTN was a bit of a disappointment since people were hoping for a Dynafit rival (light, free pivot, DIN release) but it didn’t quite get there except the expensive part. I always heard the NNNBC was more XC oriented and didn’t buy any. My wife had some, the automatic version with the frozen stuck problem. The NNNBC boots commonly available seem pretty cheap and flexible uppers, not a lot of support.

[wabene]

Another insight from Utemagasinet.no.

Espen Berglund, Sales Director at Rottefella, concedes that discontinuing 75mm development in favor of NTN was a mistake.

I now think that it was a mistake when we cut our offer of 75mm bindings to make people choose NTN telemark bindings or BC bindings. Especially for Western Norway, where there is a strong tradition of going on steep trips with mountain skis, we have received strong calls to come back with a lighter 75 binding that also goes around the heel. Now we offer 100 per cent Norwegian-made binding that meets this need, says Berglund. [Rottefella 75mm with cable, my comment]

I wholeheartedly agree...

Really like where you are going with this, Musher. And not just because I have 4 pairs of 3 pin boots and many skis mounted . Keep it coming! Who knows maybe there will be a light and firm 3 pin version of the Pioneer Pro or the Free in the future.
With a cable notch on the heel!

[CwmRaider]

My thoughts on this for having run all combos: NNN-BC, 3 pin with or without cable, and Xplore

The main control parameters are defined by (in no particular order)
1) boot ankle support, lateral and torsional rigidity, to some extent dictated by the sole structure. This in turn is related to binding norms; Rottefella supplies NNN-BC or Xplore soles, and some of the 75mm boot soles seem standardized, although they are of different duckbill thickness.
2) Resistance to heel lift, to be able to pressure the front of the ski. This comes from a stiff sole and either a hard flexor or a cable on the binding
3) Technique

The cable on the 3 pin cable system has a front attachment point well behind the pin line. What this does is,
1) Increase overall resistance to heel lift
2) Increase the pressure on the ski forwards of the binding while reducing pressure behind the binding
3) Compress the boot forwards into the binding, helping the boot to flex at given flex points

On NNN-BC and Xplore, increasing the flexor stiffness:
1) Increases overall resistance to heel lift
2) Increases the pressure on the ski forwards of the binding while reducing pressure behind the binding

Boot flexing with NNN-BC and Xplore is dependent on technique and how the skier pressures down on the the boot. It is made easier with stiffer flexors as opposed to cables. The difference in how cables operate relative to flexors, is that the cables use part of their tension to crunch the boot and aid in boot flexing, whereas with stiffer flexors, all of the increased resistance to heel lift is translated into more pressure in front of the binding and less behind the binding.
I find that the hard flexor offers similar heel lift resistance to cables, in the way I set them up. But this would depend on how stiff one sets the cables. This means that in theory one should be able to pressure the front of the ski more with flexors, if one can find the right technique / strength to transfer the force to the ski.

Torsional rigidity: My impressions so far are that Xplore soles have better torsional rigidity than all NNN-BC boots, thus aiding with edge control. It is also better than a vast majority of presently available leather 75mm sole systems. I need time on hard snow to compare the torsional rigidity of the Alfa Free Xplore VS Fischer Transnordic 75mm. Plastic boots like the T4 etc have better torsional rigidity, obviously.
Boot ankle support: The most supportive boot options are Alfa Free (Xplore), Fischer Transnordic (BC and 75mm), and plastic boots for 75mm. The Alfa Free is comparable to the Transnordic BC/75, and, according to some, comparable to the plastic T4 in practice. This is not binding dependent, but boot options come and go on different binding systems. New options in the 75mm market are wearing thin.

From a binding perspective, the Xplore has better ergonomics with a step-in function, and can be transformed into either a free pivot binding, or a binding offering moderate to high heel lift resistance, for a very light overall weight. Engaging the free pivot mode requires to remove the ski and change the plate. So it is more difficult than the Voile Switchback. But the latter has a weight of 1362 g/ pair. The Xplore is only 378g/pair.
Engaging the increased heel lift resistance similarly requires a different flexor. The Voile 3 pin cable is 810g/pair (or 998 g for the traverse model with the option to clip the cable behind the binding). The Voile Hardwire 3 pin is 1290 g/pair, and the Super Telemark with Cable is 962 g/pair (no cable clip behind the binding option).

The bottom line is, that the Xplore offers a lot of functionality for the low weight. Changing flexors is slightly cumbersome but less so than adding or removing cables, and certainly easier than changing the flexors on NNN-BC.

If we admit that the support and torsional rigidity of the Alfa Free is comparable to the Fischer Transnordic 75 or BC, I am willing to say that the performance of the boot + binding combination is certainly better than NNN-BC or basic 3 pin 75mm. How it compares to the 3 pin cable with an equivalent boot - for now I am unsure. That said that the difference is not hugely obvious is telling. Intuitively, the cable may offer some more support due to the assistance provided in keeping the ball of foot flat on the binding.
For me the telemark turn is a means to an end. I am also happy skiing P turns with Fjellski. Whichever technique is suitable or feels right at a given time is the one I will use.
It is clear to me that the performance offered by a Scarpa T4 with cable binding is out of reach for the Xplore binding at the moment, but the T4 just did not work for my feet.

The above is most relevant from an xcd perspective. If you're only interested in touring flat ish terrain, NNN-BC or 75mm will offer similar performance in my opinion.

[wabene]

Thanks for putting in the time to offer this @Roelant, very good info. I will add that one advantage I find with the Voile 3PC over the other cable binding options is the lever action. When doing laps I close the lever on the down, but on the way up I flip the lever open, freeing up my heel and the cable stays in the notch on my boot heel. I don't know if this is obvious to others or not good enough for them, but it seems to work for me in my limited experience. This is not possible with the heel piece on the Voile Hardwire or Rotte ST Cable.

[Transplantskier]

@Roelant Do you feel that the greater stiffness of the Xplore boots makes up for not having the rails of the NNN BC binding in parallel turns or other situations where keeping the heel down makes the NNN BC binding successful? That's the part of Xplore I don't fully understand yet since I've never been on the binding.

[lilcliffy]

@Roelant
Excellence.
Thank you.