Chord Center mounting- does it make any sense?

[MSU Alum]

I agree with low angle. IME with telemark bindings on non-tele specific skis, using the boot center over the recommended mounting point has worked extremely well. The ski designers don't necessarily design for chord center, as skis now have all sorts of rocker variations front and back. I demo'd my son's skis which, due to his mammoth feet put me a cm forward with no issues, so +/- a cm or so is probably fine.

And there may be applications where chord center makes sense.

"I specifically asked Asnes where to mount the Rabb and Tindan for telemark and the answer, direct from the manufacturer, was unequivocal: Mount pin line at BP for both skis."
That seems pretty straight forward!

[lilcliffy]

The Rabb's have an alpine mount midsole line and it is stamped on the ski next to it: For Tech Installation Only. This is in reference to the marked line and what it is to be used for, the Rabb's are their telemark specific ski but can also be used with tech bindings if one prefers.

Does this line up the center of the running surface/edge (CRS) and is also at the narrowest point of the sidecut? If so- that is indentical to my Storetind.

I specifically asked Asnes where to mount the Rabb and Tindan for telemark and the answer, direct from the manufacturer, was unequivocal: Mount pin line at BP for both skis.

Not surprised with the Rabb- their "weapon of choice for telemark skiing" and their "hybrid" fjellski-topptur ski.
I am surprised with this design for the Tindan- wow- cannot wait to here your report on this ski!

Even with tech bindings the Rabb is mounted waaaaay back.

What if you visually ignore the Rabb's fat tip? In other words- what is the actual effective edge of the Rabb?
The effective edge of the FT62 and my Storetind starts quite deep into the ski- and although the mounting point looks very far back- it actually makes sense when I consider the functional geometry of the ski. I will check my notes- and the Storetind- but I am pretty sure that mounting a Nordic binding at BP on my Storetind puts my BOF on that BC mark...

So- I know your foot is longer than mine- if the Rabb for example is the same as my Storetind- then perhaps you could consider moving the mounting point forwards so that your BOF falls on the BC mark like mine?

I understand that all of that ski out there ahead of the mounting point looks weird- but it won't ski like it is on consolidated snow- and all of that supportive rockered tip will be awesome in deep snow.

However the Rabb and the Tindan are some of the craziest skis I've ever handled. The waist of the Rabb is deep in the back half of the ski, and the Tindan has a 5point sidecut with enormous rocker up front and a totally flat firm tail devoid of any rise in the tail. I have no idea how either of these skis are going to behave. By looking at them and handling them it's all wonky and doesn't correspond to any other ski I have. I am going to have to start somewhere, and that's going to be where Asnes told me to mount them. Again with the Rabb, I'm pretty close to alpine recommended, but with the Tindan it's miles away.

Ok- so the Rabb sounds the same as my Storetind- BP puts your BOF "on" the BC mark?
BUT- the Tindan is different? Where does BP put your foot in relation to the BC mark on the ski?

It's going to be interesting!

That's for sure!!

[Woodserson]

I agree with low angle. IME with telemark bindings on non-tele specific skis, using the boot center over the recommended mounting point has worked extremely well. The ski designers don't necessarily design for chord center, as skis now have all sorts of rocker variations front and back. I demo'd my son's skis which, due to his mammoth feet put me a cm forward with no issues, so +/- a cm or so is probably fine.

Yes, this thread is mostly about debunking the old "pin line at CC" standard that has been floated around for many years and maybe was applicable before rocker started getting involved. Back in the 90's I had a pair of Igneous MFC's and they wanted boot toe at CC (alpine boot!). It works, shaped ski, no rocker, trad camber. Telecub's longer post on the 2nd page really nails it.

I agree with you and Al completely. With alpine/generic skis I usually base off the boot-center mark on the ski and subtract 2cm. I do this because I have 30.5/31 mondo boots and I am figuring ski manufacturers are using a "male average" foot, about a 28 mondo, and since my heel isn't locked and there are different pressures involved, I move back a bit. It has worked very well for me.

The fun stuff begins when we start looking at XCD skis and telemark specific skis, which admittedly, are now relatively rare. Driving with leather boots a 188cm ski with a ton of rocker in it and a waspy waist and a firm pronounced camber going on underneath, well, there's a lot going on there. I was reviewing this thread last night, thought it had a lot of great discussion and decided to bump back to the top.

[Woodserson]

What if you visually ignore the Rabb's fat tip? In other words- what is the actual effective edge of the Rabb?
The effective edge of the FT62 and my Storetind starts quite deep into the ski- and although the mounting point looks very far back- it actually makes sense when I consider the functional geometry of the ski. I will check my notes- and the Storetind- but I am pretty sure that mounting a Nordic binding at BP on my Storetind puts my BOF on that BC mark...

So- I know your foot is longer than mine- if the Rabb for example is the same as my Storetind- then perhaps you could consider moving the mounting point forwards so that your BOF falls on the BC mark like mine?

The Rabb isn't weird. The overall mounting point is way back (weird), even for the rocker it's back there, but my midsole falls just behind the BC mark on the ski, with pins at BP. My bellows are forward of the BC mark on the ski. Tele, alpine, it would be about the same. It sound very, very similar to your Storetind.

Ok- so the Rabb sounds the same as my Storetind- BP puts your BOF "on" the BC mark?
BUT- the Tindan is different? Where does BP put your foot in relation to the BC mark on the ski?

The Tindan is wildly different. My midsole is -5cm from BC on the ski with pins mounted at BP. BUT if I put the Rabb and Tindan next to each other, same length ski (188cm each), they are mounted in the same position in relation to each other, the BP's line up next to each other. The alpine boot BC mark on the Tindan is what is forward. It's very interesting. The Tindan of course has 1cm increment marks forward and back of the BC mark, so I'm still within the window, but in serious powder position. It's going to be interesting to see how this works out.

The Rabb and the FT62 are similar skis. The Tindan is light years from the Rabb. The tail, the lack of anything forgiving in the tail, the 5point sidecut which really changes the whole tail, the deep pronounced rocker up front... it's either genius, or it's going to kick my ass, or the guy that emailed me from Asnes just spit out a carbon-copied reply and I'm going to be moving them up 3cm after getting spanked on the first day. We'll see.

(When you get a chance please remember to check your FT's and tell me where the BP fell in relation to CC, thanks!)

[Nitram Tocrut]

Could you guys speak a language that don’t put me at risk of a panic attack

I just got my Rabb mounted by the tech at La Cordée and I really wish he can understand your language

I have never mounted a ski myself and don’t really intend to... but I am curious to compare where they mounted the SB on my Rabb. I have the same boot size than Woods. I have attached a picture. Please tell me everything is fine

On a more serious note, I had the chance to try my new gear but there was not much snow but they sure turn quite easily even for a telemark débutant like me. I was not too sure about the touring part with the SB and the T-4 but It is more than acceptable... if you are not rushed to get to the DH part that is...

I will post my impressions when I have the opportunity to try them in better snow conditions i.e. not risking to ski over a partially thawed cow dung

[fisheater]

Hello Nitram.
It looks
Like they mounted center of your shoe to the boot center mark. That would be one of the recommended mounting positions. Ski it, see what you think. Those binding screws come out pretty easy, and it’s pretty easy to drill new holes as well.
Seriously, don’t worry. I mounted my Tindan 38 mm behind Asnes recommended point, and now Woods writes their recommendation to him was exactly where I mounted mine! It’s only six holes total to move a binding. It isn’t like studying Chinese Arithmetic, we just make it seem that way.
Life is too short to worry about a couple extra holes in your skis. If you need a remount, I welcome you to drive to Windsor, Ontario, I’ll meet you on the other side of the bridge. I’ll have beer, food, and I’ll remount them. Shoot if we have snow, I’ll take you for a ski, and you’ll never, ever, come back to SE Michigan. However you will have new appreciation for your backyard!
PS Just because it appears to be center of shoe to the boot center mark, does not mean it also isn’t pins on balance point or chord center as well. One of the Rabb owners could answer that better.

[Woodserson]

NItram, my man, you are good they look close to perfect, exactly where mine would be. (I just mocked up a pair of X2s on my Rabbs to check, for real!) If you have the same size boots as I do you'll see the little mark on your boot-- it's vertical, there's on either side, behind/aft of the bellows. This is the midsole/boot center. That little mark on your boot probably lines up with the line on the ski. If you are within a few cm's either way you're going to be fine. Ski them, figure it out later, take up Fish on his plan if you want otherwise, but I bet they are dead-nuts on where they need to be. It's all good!

Also, I love my T4 & SBX2 set up, I have it on several skis. It's a great combination! Enjoy!

Life is too short to worry about a couple extra holes in your skis. If you need a remount, I welcome you to drive to Windsor, Ontario, I’ll meet you on the other side of the bridge. I’ll have beer, food, and I’ll remount them. Shoot if we have snow, I’ll take you for a ski, and you’ll never, ever, come back to SE Michigan. However you will have new appreciation for your backyard!

[Nitram Tocrut]

NItram, my man, you are good they look close to perfect, exactly where mine would be. (I just mocked up a pair of X2s on my Rabbs to check, for real!) If you have the same size boots as I do you'll see the little mark on your boot-- it's vertical, there's on either side, behind/aft of the bellows. This is the midsole/boot center. That little mark on your boot probably lines up with the line on the ski. If you are within a few cm's either way you're going to be fine. Ski them, figure it out later, take up Fish on his plan if you want otherwise, but I bet they are dead-nuts on where they need to be. It's all good!

Also, I love my T4 & SBX2 set up, I have it on several skis. It's a great combination! Enjoy!

Life is too short to worry about a couple extra holes in your skis. If you need a remount, I welcome you to drive to Windsor, Ontario, I’ll meet you on the other side of the bridge. I’ll have beer, food, and I’ll remount them. Shoot if we have snow, I’ll take you for a ski, and you’ll never, ever, come back to SE Michigan. However you will have new appreciation for your backyard!

Hi Woods and Fish... I get as much fun as I get information from this Forum Just wished I found about it before... or I would have probably gone bankrupt with my farm trying to keep up with all the skis Woods seems to be buying

Fish, I looked up Windsor on the map and it would take as much time to drive to Windsor then to drive to Stanley, New Brunswick. So I propose that if I have to remount my skis we meet at LilCliffy's home in Stanley and he does the remounting while we enjoy the snow there!!! As for skiing in SE Michigan... I must say that is not on top of the places I must ski You would be better of skiing in my backyard... and we have great places to fish as well during the winter

Woods, thank's for reassuring me... but the thing is that I am pretty bad at telemark so wherever the ski is mounted I will still suc... at it What I need first and foremost is some lessons and a lot of practice! Knowing that we have the same boot size and that you have so many skis... I think I will stop at your place to do some shopping for my next pair of skis

Freezing rain outside... don't know what will be left of the snow... oh well, the last 10 days of ski in early November was a good appetizer

[Munsi]

Timely topic for me. I'm attempting to get Rottafella Chilis with Supercarve risers mounted to my 15 year old twin boys new Fischer Prodigy twin tips (they've been on old school 90's skis since they stated at 9, Megas, Tuas and Atomic Arcs now they want to stretch their wings). With no paper template available for the supercarves, I'm reticent about mounting them myself and NO ski shops here in the Midwest will touch them.... Midwest Mountaineering Gear West...nobody. Thankfully the kind fellows at Freeheallife are going to walk me through the steps. I was going to mount them pinline on chordcenter BUT Freeheall pro said NO- not on those skis - said to mount boot center on boot centerline. So I will. If anyone has a paper template for supercarves I'd appreicate it. Thanks --

[fisheater]

Since this thread has drifted to center of the skiers shoe, to a boot center line on the ski. There is a major difference between skiing fixed heel vs free heel, which is in one form the heel is fixed.
When fixed heel skiing, from a centered position, the skier is pressuring his shin against the boot. So while the skier is centered, the skier is still pressuring the front of the ski.
I cannot see how this is duplicated even with the heaviest of Telemark gear. While very active Telemark bindings May allow the rear foot to duplicate that shins to the front of the boot pressure, in my mind, I do not see the two being equal.
The larger factor, is the very nature of Telemark skiing requires the skier into pressuring the ski from a more balanced position. Without the fixed heel, the skier cannot leverage pressure to the front of the ski. The fixed heel also prevents the skier from launching over the bars.
So while sidecut effect on how a ski handles and where a binding should be mounted do not change between free and fixed heel skiing. There is a difference in how the ski is pressured between the two disciplines. Rocker, and how pressure is applied to rocker between freeheel and fixed heel are quite different.Since Telemark is such a fringe form, I don’t see how automatically mounting boot center is a more enlightened Telemark mount position than chord center was years ago.