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Re: Physics debate
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:36 am
by DG99
I’m a biologist. And a telemark skier at times. Definitely will say that the the cable creates force that pressures the tip of the ski! So to speak!!!.
It’s really weird and near impossible to do a telemark turn on AT gear, with the heel unlocked, just pivoting on that free pivot hinge on the toe, with that straight rigid sole. Strangely and I don’t know why really,
Also, with Scarpa T2s in Voile Switchbacks in free pivot mode, difficult nearing impossible. You need that resistance from having the toe piece locked and the cable tension engaged to really do it well or easily. Strange about that.
There has been that old debate, active vs. neutral tele bindings, I.e., more vs. relatively less cable resistance. Is more active better, just a crutch, etc.?
Re: Physics debate
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:27 am
by GrimSurfer
Except your Scarpas aren’t in free pivot. The toes are locked and the sole of the boot is providing resistance to movement. Perhaps not enough resistance for your liking, but this is not “free pivot” as one otherwise would get in a NNN BC binding without a bumper (or an Xplore without a flexor) if your Scarpa could be mounted to those bindings.
So what you’re saying is that the resistance in the arc of movement imparted by the Scarpa sole doesn’t “do it for you” but the added resistance afforded by the cable does work. Fair comment and nothing in this statement violates the laws of physics,
It is ironic that the NN, NNN BC, and Xplore bindings all do the same thing. The NN first did it entirely with sole resistance, but that wasn’t enough. So a cable was added later to increase that resistance. Springs of varying stiffness were added, etc.
The NNN BC came later, adding a toe bumper to increase resistance to movement. Soon thereafter, different bumpers were available.
Xplore followed with an easier to replace flexor (try changing a NNN BC bumper on the trail).
As bindings progress, the stiffness of the sole is becoming less crucial to movement control. Other movement control elements are being introduced as part of the binding, rather than as an afterthought. This reflects a progression in understanding, materials science, and engineering.
We get another form of control when skiing through deep powder, which acts against our shins to add resistance. This is why we can do some things easier in deeper powder… the range of movement is the same but the resistance to movement makes a difference.
This is what control is all about.
Re: Physics debate
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:27 am
by TheMusher
Early January I learnt that cables don't transmit force.
Just in this week that tip pressure is not a thing.
Today, Switchback bindings cannot go in free pivot.
What a time to be alive! Thank you for being our fountain of knowledge @GrimSurfer
Re: Physics debate
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:36 am
by GrimSurfer
TheMusher wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:27 am
Early January I learnt that cables don't transmit force.
Just in this week that tip pressure is not a thing.
Nobody said tip pressure wasn’t a thing… just that cables don’t magically create it. Nor does the skier magically apply a force to only one part of the ski. Nobody magically understands the physics of skiing either.
It turns out that skiing isn’t “magic” after all. Turns out Newton (and Einstein) was correct after all.
Crazy, eh?
Re: Physics debate
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:45 am
by connyro
GrimSurfer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:27 am
Except your Scarpas aren’t in
free pivot. The toes are locked and the sole of the boot is providing resistance to movement. Perhaps not enough resistance for your liking, but this is not “free pivot” as one otherwise would get in a NNN BC binding without a bumper (or an Xplore without a flexor) if your Scarpa could be mounted to those bindings.
So what you’re saying is that the resistance in the arc of movement imparted by the Scarpa sole doesn’t “do it for you” but the added resistance afforded by the cable does work. Fair comment and nothing in this statement violates the laws of physics,
It is ironic that the NN, NNN BC, and Xplore bindings all do the same thing. The NN first did it
entirely with sole resistance, but that wasn’t enough. So a cable was added later to increase that resistance. Springs of varying stiffness were added, etc.
The NNN BC came later, adding a toe bumper to increase resistance to movement. Soon thereafter, different bumpers were available.
Xplore followed with an easier to replace flexor (try changing a NNN BC bumper on the trail).
As bindings progress, the stiffness of the sole is becoming less crucial to movement control. Other movement control elements are being introduced as part of the binding, rather than as an afterthought. This reflects a progression in understanding, materials science, and engineering.
We get another form of control when skiing through deep powder, which acts against our shins to add resistance. This is why we can do some things easier in deeper powder… the range of movement is the same but the resistance to movement makes a difference.
This is what control is all about.
You have no idea how free pivot bindings (switchbacks) work. In tour mode, they offer no resistance at all.
Re: Physics debate
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:47 am
by lowangle al
At this point I don't think you will find the answer you are looking for on this forum. You have had first hand information from people that have experienced what you say doesn't exist. You have also gotten some good explanations from trained scientists on this forum. If this doesn't satisfy you, maybe you should take it up on a physics forum.
Re: Physics debate
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:50 am
by GrimSurfer
connyro wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:45 am
GrimSurfer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:27 am
Except your Scarpas aren’t in
free pivot. The toes are locked and the sole of the boot is providing resistance to movement. Perhaps not enough resistance for your liking, but this is not “free pivot” as one otherwise would get in a NNN BC binding without a bumper (or an Xplore without a flexor) if your Scarpa could be mounted to those bindings.
So what you’re saying is that the resistance in the arc of movement imparted by the Scarpa sole doesn’t “do it for you” but the added resistance afforded by the cable does work. Fair comment and nothing in this statement violates the laws of physics,
It is ironic that the NN, NNN BC, and Xplore bindings all do the same thing. The NN first did it
entirely with sole resistance, but that wasn’t enough. So a cable was added later to increase that resistance. Springs of varying stiffness were added, etc.
The NNN BC came later, adding a toe bumper to increase resistance to movement. Soon thereafter, different bumpers were available.
Xplore followed with an easier to replace flexor (try changing a NNN BC bumper on the trail).
As bindings progress, the stiffness of the sole is becoming less crucial to movement control. Other movement control elements are being introduced as part of the binding, rather than as an afterthought. This reflects a progression in understanding, materials science, and engineering.
We get another form of control when skiing through deep powder, which acts against our shins to add resistance. This is why we can do some things easier in deeper powder… the range of movement is the same but the resistance to movement makes a difference.
This is what control is all about.
You have no idea how free pivot bindings (switchbacks) work. In tour mode, they offer no resistance at all.
I’ve been talking all along about NN 3 pin 75mm. Occasionally mentioned NNN and Xplore, for comparison. Folks have been adding other bindings to the discussion as a way of avoiding the issue… it’s a variation on the “yeah, but” statements made by people actively avoiding opportunities to learn.
So this is your “yeah, but” moment. Well done.
Re: Physics debate
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:54 am
by TheMusher
GrimSurfer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:12 am
wabene wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:09 am
Ok @GrimSurfer I have a question that I intend as a yes or no question. Would you please oblige me with an answer in this fashion?
When the skier flexes the boot and loads the spring cable, does that cable transmit a force?
I don’t think it does.
At this point I'm not sure whether you are trolling or not...
Re: Physics debate
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:10 am
by wabene
snow-mark wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 7:44 am
This is very nutritious troll food.
This is the third post and obviously correct. The conversation has been going in circles and is right back at the beginning. A purpose has been served as pressure on other threads has been relieved, but other than that not so much.
Re: Physics debate
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:14 am
by connyro
GrimSurfer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:50 am
connyro wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:45 am
GrimSurfer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:27 am
Except your Scarpas aren’t in
free pivot. The toes are locked and the sole of the boot is providing resistance to movement. Perhaps not enough resistance for your liking, but this is not “free pivot” as one otherwise would get in a NNN BC binding without a bumper (or an Xplore without a flexor) if your Scarpa could be mounted to those bindings.
So what you’re saying is that the resistance in the arc of movement imparted by the Scarpa sole doesn’t “do it for you” but the added resistance afforded by the cable does work. Fair comment and nothing in this statement violates the laws of physics,
It is ironic that the NN, NNN BC, and Xplore bindings all do the same thing. The NN first did it
entirely with sole resistance, but that wasn’t enough. So a cable was added later to increase that resistance. Springs of varying stiffness were added, etc.
The NNN BC came later, adding a toe bumper to increase resistance to movement. Soon thereafter, different bumpers were available.
Xplore followed with an easier to replace flexor (try changing a NNN BC bumper on the trail).
As bindings progress, the stiffness of the sole is becoming less crucial to movement control. Other movement control elements are being introduced as part of the binding, rather than as an afterthought. This reflects a progression in understanding, materials science, and engineering.
We get another form of control when skiing through deep powder, which acts against our shins to add resistance. This is why we can do some things easier in deeper powder… the range of movement is the same but the resistance to movement makes a difference.
This is what control is all about.
You have no idea how free pivot bindings (switchbacks) work. In tour mode, they offer no resistance at all.
I’ve been talking all along about NN 3 pin 75mm. Occasionally mentioned NNN and Xplore, for comparison. Folks have been adding other bindings to the discussion as a way of avoiding the issue… it’s a variation on the “yeah, but” statements made by people actively avoiding opportunities to learn.
So this is your “yeah, but” moment. Well done.
dude, you were just lecturing DG99 a few minutes ago about how his scarpas in switchbacks actually do have resistance. You argue in bad faith and just like to hear yourself talk. Take Al's advice and beat it to a physics forum with this nonsense argument.