And let's face it... they carry pretty much everything
XC oriented ski for max float on dry snow
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Woodserson
- Posts: 2996
- Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:25 am
- Location: New Hampshire
- Ski style: Bumps, trees, steeps and long woodsy XC tours
- Occupation: Confused Turn Farmer
Re: XC oriented ski for max float on dry snow
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lilcliffy
- Posts: 4277
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm
- Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada
- Ski style: backcountry Nordic ski touring
- Favorite Skis: Asnes Ingstad, Combat Nato, Amundsen, Rabb 68; Altai Kom
- Favorite boots: Alpina Alaska BC; Lundhags Expedition; Alfa Skaget XP; Scarpa T4
- Occupation: Forestry Professional
Instructor at Maritime College of Forest Technology
Husband, father, farmer and logger
Re: XC oriented ski for max float on dry snow
Fjellsport's prices are very good: https://www.fjellsport.no/
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.
Re: XC oriented ski for max float on dry snow
It looks like I have forgotten this thread a couple of years ago, but it was ski - ice fishing - hot tent camping season at it's best. Small update on what I have been thinking about this deep dry snow ski thing lately, both dh and xc.
I have just bought my first real downhill setup, T4+Kom, waiting for X2's, and I already know it will not be the one ski quiver I originally wanted , I will need a real powder board later ("luckily" we got a firmer layer last week, so Koms might be in their element). While I was trying to figure out how these downhill skis function (reading too much online, skiing what I've got) I also came to wonder how Finnish forest skis often seem to turn quite effortlessly compared to XCd skis, even when it clearly is not all about flotation. And I mean turn, not carve - they pivot, they slarve, they skid! They are clumsy, mine at 280cm, but still, and also stable!. That is why my neighbor prefers turning his all-one-piece wooden 300+ forest ski rather than Madshus Epochs - he grew up doing it and that is what those skis are meant to do. I had been pondering these things, but here https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/sho ... ula-Manual
it was all put together so clearly. Obviously 280cm Järvinen is an all different beast than Volant Spatula, but there are many elements in common: reverse sidecut, rocker (Järvinen has at least 60cm of nordic rocker), enough flex in tail also that it bends to reverse (camber is strong and high, but basically single)... I mean, if you would take a ski like Madshus Epoch and make it 280cm, it would take three men to pivot them... Järvinen might not be fun in the same way in downhills as Annum can be , but it can be easier to get down safely with them in some conditions. And they can still be a lot of fun in their own way. When it is not super steep, snow is soft - they can really take some speed if you point them down and let go!
About forest skis - Järvinen is the National favourite of industrially manufactured skis for the past 4 decades - well there were also Lahdenperä's, but they were discontinued in the 90's perhaps. They are known for their soft tip that wants to float. So there is a bow breaking trail, tip trying to pop to the surface. I can not see it as a bad thing - I mean, why should it be in the bottom? It supports skiers weight with the whole length nevertheless. My neighbor prefers his Puolanka -style skis with stiffer tips when it gets really deep, but he is not a big man and his skis are 30cm longer - he can afford the luxury of stiffer skis, keeping the center of the ski much higher - 280cm Järvinen is actually a compromise ski! But a good one - when skiing Järvinen in dense forest, it is enough to lighten your weight on one ski, and it kind of lifts itself up as the tip is already on top, so it is easy and light to steer where you want to go.
About downhill skis... Well, I am going to get a big powder ski for my plastic boots - I know I need them. Well, of course I could, with enough practce, ski my Koms in any snow we have, but I know I want that effortless float too - well, there is endless selection already available, no problem. What is more interesting to me, is how could these two, I mean forest ski and powder ski, be combined to a real deep dry soft snow effortless and stable XCD leather boot ski?
I have just bought my first real downhill setup, T4+Kom, waiting for X2's, and I already know it will not be the one ski quiver I originally wanted , I will need a real powder board later ("luckily" we got a firmer layer last week, so Koms might be in their element). While I was trying to figure out how these downhill skis function (reading too much online, skiing what I've got) I also came to wonder how Finnish forest skis often seem to turn quite effortlessly compared to XCd skis, even when it clearly is not all about flotation. And I mean turn, not carve - they pivot, they slarve, they skid! They are clumsy, mine at 280cm, but still, and also stable!. That is why my neighbor prefers turning his all-one-piece wooden 300+ forest ski rather than Madshus Epochs - he grew up doing it and that is what those skis are meant to do. I had been pondering these things, but here https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/sho ... ula-Manual
it was all put together so clearly. Obviously 280cm Järvinen is an all different beast than Volant Spatula, but there are many elements in common: reverse sidecut, rocker (Järvinen has at least 60cm of nordic rocker), enough flex in tail also that it bends to reverse (camber is strong and high, but basically single)... I mean, if you would take a ski like Madshus Epoch and make it 280cm, it would take three men to pivot them... Järvinen might not be fun in the same way in downhills as Annum can be , but it can be easier to get down safely with them in some conditions. And they can still be a lot of fun in their own way. When it is not super steep, snow is soft - they can really take some speed if you point them down and let go!
About forest skis - Järvinen is the National favourite of industrially manufactured skis for the past 4 decades - well there were also Lahdenperä's, but they were discontinued in the 90's perhaps. They are known for their soft tip that wants to float. So there is a bow breaking trail, tip trying to pop to the surface. I can not see it as a bad thing - I mean, why should it be in the bottom? It supports skiers weight with the whole length nevertheless. My neighbor prefers his Puolanka -style skis with stiffer tips when it gets really deep, but he is not a big man and his skis are 30cm longer - he can afford the luxury of stiffer skis, keeping the center of the ski much higher - 280cm Järvinen is actually a compromise ski! But a good one - when skiing Järvinen in dense forest, it is enough to lighten your weight on one ski, and it kind of lifts itself up as the tip is already on top, so it is easy and light to steer where you want to go.
About downhill skis... Well, I am going to get a big powder ski for my plastic boots - I know I need them. Well, of course I could, with enough practce, ski my Koms in any snow we have, but I know I want that effortless float too - well, there is endless selection already available, no problem. What is more interesting to me, is how could these two, I mean forest ski and powder ski, be combined to a real deep dry soft snow effortless and stable XCD leather boot ski?
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lilcliffy
- Posts: 4277
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm
- Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada
- Ski style: backcountry Nordic ski touring
- Favorite Skis: Asnes Ingstad, Combat Nato, Amundsen, Rabb 68; Altai Kom
- Favorite boots: Alpina Alaska BC; Lundhags Expedition; Alfa Skaget XP; Scarpa T4
- Occupation: Forestry Professional
Instructor at Maritime College of Forest Technology
Husband, father, farmer and logger
Re: XC oriented ski for max float on dry snow
@havuja
I very much enjoyed reading your post- thank you!
I am wondering what the tree-forest cover is like where you are going to be downhill skiing?
I am wondering if part of the "problem" with the Kom not being enough, is its length?
If you are not needing to ski tight steep lines through forest- then perhaps a longer ski is just as- or perhaps more important in that bottomless snow? The longer ski will not only give you more surface area, but also be more stable?
Personally- what I "want" is a 188cm Voile V6- but I need them for skiing steep tight lines in the northern forest- therefore, I would be better with the 173/178.
The Voile V8 is made in a 193cm!!! If I was downhill skiing above treeline, and had bottomless powder to ski- I would be looking for length as well as surfy float...
I very much enjoyed reading your post- thank you!
I am wondering what the tree-forest cover is like where you are going to be downhill skiing?
I am wondering if part of the "problem" with the Kom not being enough, is its length?
If you are not needing to ski tight steep lines through forest- then perhaps a longer ski is just as- or perhaps more important in that bottomless snow? The longer ski will not only give you more surface area, but also be more stable?
Personally- what I "want" is a 188cm Voile V6- but I need them for skiing steep tight lines in the northern forest- therefore, I would be better with the 173/178.
The Voile V8 is made in a 193cm!!! If I was downhill skiing above treeline, and had bottomless powder to ski- I would be looking for length as well as surfy float...
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.
Re: XC oriented ski for max float on dry snow
@lilcliffy
Thank you for the big work you've done planting so much knowledge all around Ttalk! It is also interesting to slowly come to see the differences in the usual type of snow we have in different parts of world. Sounds like you generally have much more than us here, somehow similar conditions, yet still I often struggle not to drown with the same skis you rip with. Or is it partly cultural? Forest skis might have spoiled me!
Where I ski big D it is most often half open, above treeline terrain, and half mountain birch forest with possibly some pines, where I need to try and find the lines where it is not too tight. If I head to bigger verticals,the ratio of open grows. Then again, in open terrain there is not that much need for big skis, snow tends to get firmer quicker, although I think I would like getting properly on top of snow to enjoy also the low angle terrain, which is after all what it mostly is where I ski - I need to seek the steeps, but they are there when I am ready. Then, for meadow skipping there are some nice steepish hills with good fairly open forests, but they tend to be so rocky and bouldery that they require a serious snow pack to be safe. A dense layer in snow helps.
Yes, I would want to be able to ski long skis, but I will see later what I can deal with and what I really like. Both V6 and V8 would be on top of my lists for sure if I were to pick skis now. At the moment my plan is to ski Koms as much as I can, and keep an eye open for good deals on some suitable(possibly second hand) powder skis to make the learning process cheaper.
During last two weeks we first had moisture rich snow coming with high winds from the Arctic Ocean, more windy days after that, then above freezing temps for like 12 hours, cold again and then 15cm of powder on top. I am still often falling through that crusty layer XC skiing, but Koms will be mostly on top in downhill speeds. It is not every year that we get that kind of crust, which begins to carry some weight, like before March or even April. It will be perfect for skiing the Koms as snow accumulates on top.
LC, earlier in this thread you asked about how I prep the bases of forest skis. My Järvinen's are scaled. Sometimes the scales can be enough, but I usually grip wax with harder wax like 15-30 cm front and a bit aft, leaving tips and tails on glide wax. When more grip is needed, I do not hesitate to grip wax the scales too. BTW, there is this 455 rule for mounting bindings on forest skis. It is as simple as: boot center at 0.455*ski length, measured from tail. At least with Järvinen it works perfect, avoiding tail dive with tip braking trail as a firm bow.
Thank you for the big work you've done planting so much knowledge all around Ttalk! It is also interesting to slowly come to see the differences in the usual type of snow we have in different parts of world. Sounds like you generally have much more than us here, somehow similar conditions, yet still I often struggle not to drown with the same skis you rip with. Or is it partly cultural? Forest skis might have spoiled me!
Where I ski big D it is most often half open, above treeline terrain, and half mountain birch forest with possibly some pines, where I need to try and find the lines where it is not too tight. If I head to bigger verticals,the ratio of open grows. Then again, in open terrain there is not that much need for big skis, snow tends to get firmer quicker, although I think I would like getting properly on top of snow to enjoy also the low angle terrain, which is after all what it mostly is where I ski - I need to seek the steeps, but they are there when I am ready. Then, for meadow skipping there are some nice steepish hills with good fairly open forests, but they tend to be so rocky and bouldery that they require a serious snow pack to be safe. A dense layer in snow helps.
Yes, I would want to be able to ski long skis, but I will see later what I can deal with and what I really like. Both V6 and V8 would be on top of my lists for sure if I were to pick skis now. At the moment my plan is to ski Koms as much as I can, and keep an eye open for good deals on some suitable(possibly second hand) powder skis to make the learning process cheaper.
During last two weeks we first had moisture rich snow coming with high winds from the Arctic Ocean, more windy days after that, then above freezing temps for like 12 hours, cold again and then 15cm of powder on top. I am still often falling through that crusty layer XC skiing, but Koms will be mostly on top in downhill speeds. It is not every year that we get that kind of crust, which begins to carry some weight, like before March or even April. It will be perfect for skiing the Koms as snow accumulates on top.
LC, earlier in this thread you asked about how I prep the bases of forest skis. My Järvinen's are scaled. Sometimes the scales can be enough, but I usually grip wax with harder wax like 15-30 cm front and a bit aft, leaving tips and tails on glide wax. When more grip is needed, I do not hesitate to grip wax the scales too. BTW, there is this 455 rule for mounting bindings on forest skis. It is as simple as: boot center at 0.455*ski length, measured from tail. At least with Järvinen it works perfect, avoiding tail dive with tip braking trail as a firm bow.