Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

TheMusher wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:54 am

Whats this fuss about the springs not transferring force?

Obviously the springs tension as you raise your heel, transmitting a forward force to the ski generated by raising your heel. It’s the whole point of active tele bindings…

____

They being said, I’m more interested in the actual subject. I myself need to decide between xplore versus Rottefella 75mm w/ cables for my rabb and Breidablikk husky.

Is the xplore investment worth it?

My only current issue with 75mm is the typical more flat shoe soles and very slightly more restrictive k&g (compared to nnn-bc and likely xplore)

I believe k&g on equal boots will be better on Xplore. However although close, I actually believe the Alaska 75 kicks better than the BC version. Put the Alaska 75 in a Rotte 75 cable and it’s a very good downhill combination. I added a Voile 10 mm riser to facilitate cable use for DH only

Roelant wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:48 am

@GrimSurfer the cable is pulling the boot towards the ski, around the bindings pivot point. Ergo the boot is pulling the rear of the ski up and the front of the ski down around the bindings pivot point.

The cable is pushing (there is no such thing as pull in physics) towards the binding toe plate. The binding toe plate has a reaction force against the toe of the boot. These forces occur in equal and opposite directions. The net force is zero.

All of this is attached to the ski.

So what force is being applied to the ski by this system? Nothing, zero, nada, zip.

The only force being applied to the ski is the force of gravity. This is an external force, which is the only thing that can make the ski move.

The external force is manipulated by a skier. If the skier doesn’t move, neither will the ski.

If a cable provided force on its own, the skier wouldn’t need to move. You wouldn’t even need a slope.

But we all know that you do need a slope. The skier must move forward, back, side to side to accentuate an imbalance of forces created by the angle of the slope and the downward force of gravity.

Cables [edit] help control [edit] this movement. The don’t impart any force on the ski themselves….

GrimSurfer wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 01, 2023 10:05 am

The cable is pushing (there is no such thing as pull in physics) towards the binding toe plate. The binding toe plate has a reaction force against the toe of the boot. These forces occur in equal and opposite directions. The net force is zero.

GrimSurfer wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:24 am

lowangle al wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:13 am

GrimSurfer wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 01, 2023 8:35 am

Quick. Get on a plane and rush to Oslo. This is ground breaking stuff… turns out the laws of physics that we’ve all beeen following for the past 200 years have been wrong.

LOL.

I'm not arguing with the science, just your application of it. The fact that cables increase tip pressure isn't even debatable anymore.

Have you ever skied with a cable binding? If so, for how long?

Yup. Lots of times during my “skiing in jeans” days. LOL

Good one, so the answer is no?

Last time I checked, “yup” meant yes.

Good idea to confirm though… because “yup” may mean “no”. “Lots of times” may mean “never at all”. Grip wax may be for glide… Skis may generate lift…

Anything to shift the convo away from how stuff actually works…

AdamA wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:37 pm

Hey All,

Anyone have experience with the new Xplores for downhill oriented skiing? I've got some 3pins with cables on FTXs. They've been great, with a ton of downhill control with my Fischer BCX Transnordics.

Do you think that Xplores have any chance of having similar downhill control?

It sounds like you have a great setup Adam. Are you using a Voile or the Rottefella? If Voile, the cable or hardwire version? It sure is a great time to be an XCD skier as there are so many choices and combinations of skis, boots, and bindings, each with their advantages and disadvantages, but all capable of endless fun in the snow. Everyone has their own preferences. The downhill experience with the Xplore feels very different from the typical cable combination. But to be honest, skiing a soft leather boot with a spring cable feels very different from skiing a plastic boot with hardwire, so the answer to your question is "it depends". I won't be skiing soft leather with a cable or hardwire in the future. I will continue to ski my plastic Scarpa T2's with the Voile Switchback but I would never classify that setup as an XCD setup. Everyone has their own definition as to what constitutes XCD, but in my mind, the Xplore system with a sturdy and supportive boot is every bit as capable as most leather boot and cable combinations. I understand the resistance by many toward the new system. There is no reason to jump ship if you have several 75 mm systems and they are working well, but for those who are new to the sport and are buying their first setup, my advice to them is to go with the Xplore system for XCD and if you want to ski a plastic boot in a downhill setup, go with a free pivot system. So on that line of thinking, you have a great XCD system, so no need even think about swapping out to the Xplore system until your boots blow out (and they will over time). When that time comes you can reevaluate the situation. If you find yourself leaving the cables in your pack more often than you pull them out, you will know for sure that you would be very happy with an Xplore option.

JB TELE wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:19 pm

Does the stiff flexor on the xplore binding effectively replace a cable? I started on plastic tele boots and active bindings. Skiing without my cables attached feels to loose and its hard to push down with the ball of my foot rather than push down with toes. But im very new to this and i have bad technique.

I think that the answer to this is relative-
There is no way the stiffer flexor will substitute for the resistance and/or activity of modern 75mm Telemark bindings.
But increasing resistance in the binding interface alone certainly facilitates applying downward pressure into the ski in a telemark turn.
I don't know if you have ever tried to make a telemark turn with NNNBC, but the stiffer flexor makes a very significant difference in pressuring the trailing ski.
And- also- WHOA- try making a telemark turn on NNNBC without a flexor installed!
(Try straightforward XC kick and glide skiing on NNN/NNNBC without a flexor and zero binding resistance!)

My current perspective is that Xplore clearly takes conventional Nordic touring systems (NNNBC/NN) to the next level-
primarily through the rigiidity of the boot-binding interface.
My perspective is that Xplore is intended to improve the performance of traditional Nordic ski touring.

lowangle al wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 01, 2023 12:04 am

AdamA wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:42 pm

So I take it that I should just hold on to my 3pin and cables for the time being...

Adam, what is it you want to get out of the Explore system? Better dh control, touring efficiency or maybe weight savings?

Hoping to save weight and touring efficiency, but maintain DH control. And I want to get rid of the 75mm duckbill squeak lol.

GrimSurfer wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:58 pm

lilcliffy wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:13 pm

1) power transfer→ the resistance of the heel cable transfers force from the rasied-heel down into the ski- making it easier to pressure the trailing ski into a turn.

Nope. This would violate the laws of physics.

Well- perhaps I am not using the correct terminology- I have not formally studied physics since my 1styr BSc prog in 1991!

I am not trying to suggest that the heel cable creates energy- just that it produces resistance- the degree of that resistance is a function of the material construction of the heel "cables" and stiffness of the "spring".
(I doubt that old Sondre got a lot of resistance out of his spruce root heel straps- but they certainly kept his feet in the binding and helped saved him from going over the handle bars...)

Any resistance to rotation of the foot in the binding is going to faciliates downward pressure into the ski- the ski is on snow. If the ski was on concrete the resistance would simply facilitate pushing the ski forwards.

Regardless- forgive me if I end up using terminology inappropriately.
I have been using the term "power transfer" to describe this- I was not trying to suggest that the binding somehow created NRG.

No forgiveness needed. How you’ve described the system is exactly how it works.

No violations of the laws of physics. The space-time continuum remains intact.

fisheater wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:12 pm

I always thought the primary reason of the cable was primarily to transfer the power from the raised heel to the ski, and to assist the skier in getting the BoF onto the ski with a stiffer boot. Especially with newer plastic boots.

Yes- my limited experience is that the resistance of the heel "cable" (or any form of resistance really (e.g. flexor)) facilitates this. While I can certainly complete a true evenly-weighted telemark turn with a completely free heel- this is not always possible- especially in BC conditions- and for me it is not even always desirable. The resistance in the binding makes it easier for me to pressure my trailing ski- even when it is not fully weighted.

Now onto my more important point. I view the Alaska 75 as a fairly soft soled boot. What makes the Rotte ST cable unique is that it makes that laterally (and most other directions) floppy sole stiff and reliable.
Since you own a Rotte ST cable, pull it out of the box and hook those cables up. It’s kind of a PITA, isn’t it? However holding the binding secure try to move that cable laterally from the heel piece. You’ll find very little movement at all.

Yes- agree- and I believe you that the Rotte ST cable will significantly stiffen up the lateral dimension of a soft-soled boot (e.g. Alaska 75). There must be a limit to this though- one is still pressuring the boot and that soft sole is going to twist at some point- no? Wouldn't our much stiffer-soled Ski March boots be laterally-stiffer in that binding?

Of course the Voile 3-pin cable moves all over as would a Targa type cable. Even the 3 pin Hardwire type cable doesn’t compare to the lateral stiffness of that Rotte cable.
That is why I believe even a floppy boot like the Alaska 75 can become such a powerful boot in that Rotte ST cable.

I believe you. And I am still leaning more towards this on my Rabb 68 at the moment...
I am actually more interested in what Xplore does to improve the performance of my trad Nordic touring setups (e.g. Ingstad/Combat NATO/Nansen/Sverdrup/Gamme).

In full disclosure, I hated that cable when it first arrived. I carried in my pack in a lot of situations when I should have been using it. Only when my skiing embarrassed me, did I pull it out. I went immediately from not being able to control my inside ski as I expected, to skiing exactly as I expected. I was skiing on the road, I thought I was going back to a motel room to get a different boot.

Since I first decided to drop plain-jane 3pin for NNNBC→ I will never mount a 3pin binding without a heel "cable".