The NNN/BC Truth Thread

[The Lovely Bear]

[Cannatonic]

re: learning, all I can say is find some consolidated corn like the "youngster" in the photo above. That is where I was able to figure out how to tele turn on light gear. Still flailing in deep powder!

As a lifetime alpine skier I found I had to force my legs into tele turn position before starting the turn. i.e., when the skis are pointed straight downhill, force your legs to bend, bring the outside ski forward, and lift your inside heel. All while still pointing straight downhill. Then, while forced into the tele position, your legs will begin to execute the tele turn as you slowly turn your skis across the fall line.

I also found it important to crouch extra low and force my outside arm forward and down like the youngster above but lower. Holding the arm low and "pressing" the outside edge is the visualization I needed to force my legs into the tele turn instead of reverting to alpine.

[Teleman]

Lbear....too funny.....Got some good chuckles out of that.....We never bought into the downhill technique of "Modern" telemark....To busy enjoying riding the rail in an elongated tele that most in the (TE) tele era, worked hard to forget....Wasn't poodling the term?....Sacrament...excellentt word....TM

[connyro]

.....We never bought into the downhill technique of "Modern" telemark....To busy enjoying riding the rail in an elongated tele that most in the (TE) tele era, worked hard to forget.TM

Hmmm. That's too bad because if you had even tried 'modern' telemark technique, you might have actually learned something and finally gotten away from breaking your skis, tearing your boots, and flailing around.

[MikeK]

I don't know what poodling is... before my time, but I probably do it

I don't know about elongating much... seems to me it's better to keep your rear foot on the ball and right under your ass. For NNN it's kind of a must, because you won't engage the ridges in the binding plate and you'll be on your tip-toes if you elongate too much.

Maybe my mind will change with time... has before... probably will again.

[lilcliffy]

What you are describing on NNN-BC is equally true if you are making a deep and compact telemark. The issue isn't so much the elongation as it is the limitation of binding resistance with a NNN-BC binding (this is equally true with a 3-pin- sans cable).

With a deep and/or elongated telemark stance, the rear foot flexes much more than in a telemark with a high, stance. Without additional binding resistance a deep and/or elongated telemark does not transfer power downwards into the ski camber and edge. A deep and/or elongated telemark, with a telemark binding, with enough resistance (e.g. 3-pin cable rather than just 3-pin), produces a tremendous amount of downward power- translating into edging power.

If I need to make a powerful, carved turn, (especially if I am travelling at great speed,) and the binding has the appropriate resistance- I will pull a deep, telemark- transferring ball-of-foot flex in the rear ski into edge power!

I do feel better balanced in a deep, compact telemark, than in an elongated one- but cannot judge which is more effective than the other.

I still make deep telemarks on NNN-BC- just don't know if it is worth it without additional binding resistance.

Without a more powerful binding, all of the downward force comes from BOF control on NNN-BC, or basic 3-pin.

I do find that the deep telemark helps me keep my balance and transfer power to the ski- even on NNN-BC.

[MikeK]

I'm not really a telemark skier, so I don't know the practical end of this, but I believe that would how 'active' the binding is, correct? i.e. how much pressure it exerts on the front of the ski the farther you flex your foot?

I don't pretend to know much about this, but I find if I go really far forward, I'm actually less stable... I'm always skiing on just plain pins or NNN bindings. Even with the 3 pin I'm going off the ball of my foot and more on to my toes, even if I have a lot of weight back there.

I didn't even pay attention to what I was doing until CIMA started taking a lot about NNN skiing, etc. I started to pay close attention to those videos, and the stance, etc. Just standing around statically I messed around to find out where I felt most comfortable... and I actually found out some stuff I didn't know...

I feel less stable in a telemark, laterally... I always feel I want to fall toward the leg that is back. Makes sense when you think about it, and it actually kind of forces you to turn, or fall. I was way less stable the lower I went, and at some point, I start to lose fore/aft stability. Again by watching CIMA videos I could see the ideal position was the ball of the foot right under my ass. Stand on one leg on the BOF. That's naturally where you'll want to be... if you move too far back, you'll fall forward, too far forward, you'll fall back. Once I felt that position, I made it a point to try to get into that balance point while turning. At that point I feel very stable fore/aft, and just need to deal with my lateral stability... which is still a challenge. The physics to me there say you just need to balance your lean to your speed and radius of turn... like riding a bike.

[lilcliffy]

I'm not really a telemark skier, so I don't know the practical end of this, but I believe that would how 'active' the binding is, correct? i.e. how much pressure it exerts on the front of the ski the farther you flex your foot?

If the binding is functioning properly it should put pressure on the entire ski- not just the front. Just like a Nordic "kick", the resistance in a telemark binding should exert downward force into the ski- allowing the skier to transfer that force laterally in a carved/edged turn. Telemark bindings that are more powerful than basic 3-pin/NNNBC, restrict and resist the full extension of the rear foot- transferring more power down into the ski, than a xcountry "kick".

I find if I go really far forward, I'm actually less stable...

This is very important- being equally balanced on both feet once you are in the carving turn is critical. ( I do find that I tend to put a little more weight on my rear foot in deep powder) I do transfer weight from one leg to the other in turn transitions. The biggest challenge I personally have is not shifting weight from leg to leg; the challenge I have is re-distributing weight evenly between both feet- once I have initiated the turn. My turn initiation always begins with a transfer of weight to the forward ski.

I was way less stable the lower I went

[/quote]

This to me depends on the speed and power I need. Ideally, I am in a relaxed upright position- but if I need edging power, particularly at speed, a deep telemark absorbs speed and transfers it into the turn. And when I say "deep" telemark, I do not necessarily mean "elongated" telemark. An elongated telemark is "deep" by default. But one can make a deep, but compact telemark. I am much more balanced on a compact telemark- but sometimes I need to really bend and drop my knee low in order to pull a deep telemark. IME, an upright stance is only stable at relatively slow to moderate speeds.

[MikeK]

Soo.... 41 pages.

Did we find any Truth?


The only truth I know for sure is that since this thread's inception at least two members of this forum have started to use NNN bindings and found them at least acceptable for use with metal edged XC skis.

[Teleman]

Elongate when needed.....Bottomless powder and that condition needs some steepness to get going, is a time to weigh the back ski more as the stable ski and the fore ski as the :breaker....the wave maker....has to be handled lightly....Not riding the balls of our feet in that position.....Balls of the feet get used lots on "stand up tele".....Your ready to dance like Teledance in Idaho....be quick be ready and go in any direction...But in the Bc it's a bit different....Almost always start with a stand up tele in "fast"...or consolidated powder....and ski that way as much as possible....If you use the drop the weight to get power...your not going to be on the balls of your feet...At that point weight IS power....But with S Bound or 99's or 109's....if you punch them in they will "rebound, pop, energize" your "up" and make any turn easier....Like all things Telemark different things happen at different times in different conditions....Bout as close as anybody is going to get to freeform, no rules skiing, that gets totally individualized making it that much better....Lite white out there...TM