3-pin Racing

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iBjorn
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:21 pm

Re: 3-pin on rando racing ski? Any experience?

Postby iBjorn » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:46 am

Did also modify the tips of both my Qanik and the rebounds to take race skin last spring. Makes a huge difference in transitions.

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anemic
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:39 pm

Re: 3-pin on rando racing ski? Any experience?

Postby anemic » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:33 pm

I like the way you guys think, iBjorn and telemarkmark.

iBjorn, would you please post a photo of the skin fitting which slots into the tip? I haven't investigated this system but it reminds me of the sort of bizarre looking Dynafit 7 Summits tips, which I'm assuming has a proprietary skinlock system, which you've replicated...are you using the actual Dynafit skin lock device?

How is this faster in the transitions than the ol' metal ringding on the tip end of the skin?

Looks like a cool idea - I applaud your clever innovation.

iBjorn
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:21 pm

Re: 3-pin on rando racing ski? Any experience?

Postby iBjorn » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:57 pm

My skins are packed down in the basement, can take a photo later, in the mean time you could see the system on this link (there several good description on this out there):

http://mountainlessons.com/gear/d-y-ski ... ttachments

The advantage is that you could take of the skins in seconds without taking of the skis:

https://www.haganskimountaineering.com/ ... ing-racing

You could also rip off skins if you have elastic tailclips (from the tail), but then you will need full length skins - which are messy to put together - especially in windy conditions. Most skimo racers uses shorter skins, usually between 3/4 and 4/5 of the ski length. Easy to quickly fold and put under the ski jacket.

Please note, however that double chamber skis, always need more or less full-length skins on the uphill.

Edit: Update with photo of the Rebound tips and attached skins:
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iBjorn
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:21 pm

Re: 3-pin on rando racing ski? Any experience?

Postby iBjorn » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:18 am

Mounted the Atomics yesterday with heavily modified Voile riser to get a more widely distributed 4 screw pattern as well as to get some more binding clearance when edging in steep icy condtions. The skis weighted in at 700g/each, the 3-pin Rottefellas binding 168g, the heavily modified Volie riser ended up at 70g/each and together with a pair of old LiteDogz heel risers (28g/each) and screws and inserts the skis ended up with a total weight of 980gram/each.
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Last edited by iBjorn on Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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lilcliffy
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:20 pm
Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada

Re: 3-pin on rando racing ski? Any experience?

Postby lilcliffy » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:26 am

Hi Bjorn,

Thanks for posting all of this. Despite not being anywhere near ski-mountaineering at this point in my life- neither geographically, nor lifestyle-wise- your interest in the sport from a Nordic perspective, and your do-it-yourself approach captivates me.

Great ideas, excellent photos, and informative links. That illustrated blog on building your own skins and tip attachment is incredible.

In another dimension, I would love to pursue competitive ski-mo racing...I actually think I have the drive, skills and the constitution for it- just not able to pursue it at this point in my life. Very happy to live vicariously through people like you!
Gareth
The pursuit of XCD balance: cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry

iBjorn
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:21 pm

Re: 3-pin Racing

Postby iBjorn » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:08 pm

Both skis now mounted, the Transalps landed at 1560 gram each - almost 600 gram more than the Atomics, but it is a much larger and sturdier ski and the LiteDogz is a much sturdier binding than the Rottefellas. Did try the Atomics tonight at a nearby pisted hill. Did 10 laps and approximatly 1500 feet - works like a charm. Amazing feeling going uphill the first lap, I smiled all the way up...

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dorthman
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:14 pm

Re: 3-pin Racing

Postby dorthman » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:48 pm

Very cool setups... The transalps especially... What boots are you using?

iBjorn
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:21 pm

Re: 3-pin Racing

Postby iBjorn » Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:37 pm

Thanks for the comments, I ski on Scarpa T4s. It will be fun to test the transalps later...unfortunatly I didn't notice that there was a left and right skis with regards to the graphics. I will eventually swap the toe-boxes of the Dogz later sometime.

The main problem with touring without free pivot, IMHO, is not the force needed to flex the boot (not on a 3-pin binding anyway) but the ski tips being pressed down to the snow, making the skins add a lot more friction each stride. A solution I have tried, which work to some extent is to wax the top of the skins thoroughly. Another thing that I tried, which also lessens the drag is to make the skin cone shaped and narrower at the top, see attached picture below on som test skins to the right.

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But the best solution to decrease the tip drag of the skins, might be to use skins with p-tex in the front, such as the Madhus Intelligrip seen on the skis to the left. Although the Intelligrip dont work on anything steeper, they are a masterpiece of enginering if you want to go fast on flat hard snow - I actually participated in a cross-country ski-race (although more exercise-oriented ski race) last spring with my Volkl Qaniks and Intelligrips, and I actually didn´t end up last in the race.

Atomic make more uphill oriented skins with the front section made of p-tex. I have ordered skins to both my Backlands and the Transalps. I will report about them, as soon as I tested them.
https://shop.atomic.com/en/products/ski ... L0016.html

iBjorn
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:21 pm

Re: 3-pin Racing

Postby iBjorn » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:54 am

Have been testing skinning and skiing with the Atomic race skies on a few occasions now, and the lightness of the equipment makes it really fun. However, I got too much rocker from the T4 boot - causing too much pressure to the rear of the ski and also putting stress on the front screw of the binding. So I had to mount higher heelpads, and now the set-up works flawlessly. Doing my first race this evening...

iBjorn
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:21 pm

Re: 3-pin Racing

Postby iBjorn » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:09 pm

A short race report from my first skimo race, it was a 2 hour lap race (most laps in 2 hours win). The race track was not very high, so there was lots of laps and lots of transitions. The conditions were very icy, including the uphill track - which was quite steep also. I had severe problems with the grip of the race skins, so I had to lock out each step with the poles, which exhausted me totally. However, I was not the only one having issues with the grip. The transition area for skinning-> skiing was not flat, instead it was in a slope. Many had issues with this, what surprised me was how fast the 3-pins are in transitions, I actually was faster than the elite skiers several times. The downhill was very icy and shattery, and I only made a few tele-turns during the entire race - in an attempt to save as much energy as possible. All-in-all, it was a very nice experience - and I learned a lot for my future touring. And yes, I was not the only tele skier in the race, as far as I see it also two or three using Rottefella NTN with 4-buckle scarpas, one guy with Meidjo (who seemed to struggle in the upper transition area with the binding , since he took of the skies to remove the skins), and one with T2s and no-pivoting cable binding. There was also several guys using NTN tele boots in dynafit bindings.

Lessons learned:
*3-pins are one of the most (the most?) efficient bindings in the transitions of a skimo race
*Exercise the transitions a lot before a race, in the race the transition area is a stressful chaos and you can save a lot of time if the transitions is just a spinal reflex. I worked with the transitions and it saved my race from being a total disaster.
*On steep hard snow, when the skins start to slip, BC-style poles with directed sharp pole tips is totally superior. Several of those with regular ski poles had severe issues in the steep icy section uphill track
*If you go with race style skins, with good glide and compromised grip, be fit in your upper body. I will do a lot of ski skating before my next race to strengthen my upper body and pole work.
*Since tele boots can't match the ROM of modern AT boots, a quickly adjustable heel riser is an advantage. I am considering to try to find a 22 design heel piece which are easy to operate with the pole - or even buy a AT rear binding and modify to a tele heel riser, a AT rear binding is less weight than my current riser...


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