3-pin Racing

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lowangle al
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Re: 3-pin Racing

Postby lowangle al » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:34 pm

I know very little about skimo but it sounds like a good fun way to get in optimum shape physically. It's too bad there isn't a Nordic class for free heelers, because it seems that they are at a competitive disadvantage. Especially going up against guys with $2500.00 boots who lock there heels down.

In the little research I did I noticed that nnn and nnnbc among other systems were not allowed in that particular race. Are they prohibited in skimo in general and if so are there any comps for the XCD crowd?

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dnt_upton
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Location: Drink Moxie

Re: 3-pin Racing

Postby dnt_upton » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:05 pm

telemarkmark wrote:Tempted to put together a tech toe set up.

Nice job re 19th. That's impressive.

And if you went with a tech toe set up, my guess is you'd save time and notice a more than small difference between the uphill efficiency of a tech toe and a 3-pin binding.

iBjorn
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Re: 3-pin Racing

Postby iBjorn » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:36 am

lowangle al wrote:I know very little about skimo but it sounds like a good fun way to get in optimum shape physically. It's too bad there isn't a Nordic class for free heelers, because it seems that they are at a competitive disadvantage. Especially going up against guys with $2500.00 boots who lock there heels down.

In the little research I did I noticed that nnn and nnnbc among other systems were not allowed in that particular race. Are they prohibited in skimo in general and if so are there any comps for the XCD crowd?


It is really fun. The regulations varies between different races. In world cup races - telemark is forbidden, since you obligated to lock the heel when skiing. However, most of the races do not have these strict rules. It is common to have a minimum waist width of 60mm for the ski as well as steel edges on the skis. Regarding boot, they should go above the ankle and have at least two buckles. Telemark, AT as well as splitboard bindings are usually allowed - but not nnn/nnn-bc.

To test a race, T4/excursion boots, a shorter 60mm waisted touring ski, like 180cm E109 or Rebounds, and simple 3-pin with a heel riser bar works well in my opinion. If you enjoy it, then buy either a dedicated AT race set starting from $1200 to +$2500, or just keep with the old-fashioned light tele-rig.

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lowangle al
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Re: 3-pin Racing

Postby lowangle al » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:57 am

Thanks Bjorn, it just seems that skimo type races have a lot more in common with what we do in the mountains than the modern tele races with the gates, long poles and skating. It's too bad tele races don't follow a similar format.

It seems that there are no competitive outlets exclusively for light tele or XCD that I know of, and that's too bad.

iBjorn
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Re: 3-pin Racing

Postby iBjorn » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:51 pm

Yesterday I participated in the Solo sprint race, so here comes the race report. The race was also part of the national skimo championship. I was the only one not wearing a spandex suit, and definatly the only guy not using superlight AT gear. Most of the particapants used carbon class boots - I did not even see anyone using 1kg class AT boot (like dynafit TLTs). Most of the participants were approximaty 25 years younger and at least 10 kgs lighter. No potbellys there (except mine).

The race track was a skinning switchback section followed by a bootpack uphill running section followed by a straight uphill skinning section, then a giant slalom track downhill section followed by a flat/modest uphill skating section. The circuit took about 6 minutes for the fastest carbon youngsters. The competion started with a timed qualification round - when skiers started with 20 seconds intervals. After that was the semifinals and final when 6 skiers started in parallel in each heat.

My performance was mixed, in the qualification round I lost my right skin twice in the start and lost over a minute. However due to a limited numbers of participants I still made to semifinal. In the semifinale I suffered severily from my asthma after second half of the uphill section, although I dont think it slowed me to much. Nonetheless, it was superfun even though the competion was mostly elite world cup-class skier. Will definatly race next year, if I am able to participate.

Analysis of the race? Firstly, put on skins with the right tension at the top - I was probably nervous and unfocused when putting the skins on before the first start, and stressed when putting on after I loosed it the first time. The skinning switchback section surprised me, since it is the first time I really suffered from not having free pivot bindings - still have too figure out why it was so different from the straight uphill skinning. Have some clues/ideas, but must test them first.

The transition sections went well, and was fairly on pair with the other skiers - except from the last skinning-->skiing transition in the semifinale when I struggled to get air due to my asthma.

In the bootpack running I was mostly limited by my limited aerobic capacity, and to smaller degree due to the lack of carbon in my T4 boots. I did however notive an advantage with duckbill telemark boots compared to racing AT boots - the large area of the duckbill saved me from braking the crust despite being considerable heavier than the AT racers who more often braked the crust and sinked in the snow.

The giant slalom section I was fairly on pair with the AT racers, I do make decently fast and safe p-turns with T4s, although in the race I actually made some nice t-turns just for the sake of the show - since I was already out of rhe race.

And finally, the skating section. This is actually the only section when telemark excel over AT gear. Since the skating section follows directly after the giant slalom section, there is no opportunity for AT skiers to release their heel, which renders the telemark equipment superior. Unfortunatly, this does not render enough to compensate for all the losses in other parts.
Last edited by iBjorn on Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

iBjorn
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Re: 3-pin Racing

Postby iBjorn » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:35 pm

lowangle al wrote:In the little research I did I noticed that nnn and nnnbc among other systems were not allowed in that particular race. Are they prohibited in skimo in general and if so are there any comps for the XCD crowd?


Why not talk to the people arranging the races and express your opinion? My experiance is that all they (people arranging the races) want is to have as many people as possible to have as fun as possible. Even with light NNN-BC I dont think a tele racer dont stand a chance against the spandex/carbon racers, so that should not be a problem. But race for the fun of it, and I do think that the people arranging the races would love just that.

When I started to think about this, I saw three options:
1. Get a NNN-BC binding and higher//stiffer boot and mount with a light +80/60/70mm ski
2. Get a ATK Newmark binding and try to find one of the last Scarpa TX boots and a light +80/60/70mm ski
3. Get a light ski/binding for my T4 boots which I loved for years

I took the safe and cheaper route of the T4s (I'm on my 6th pair of T3/T4s, so they are kind of familiar). But I would love to hear from anyone trying the Newmark or NNN-BC path

iBjorn
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Re: 3-pin Racing

Postby iBjorn » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:22 pm

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Did some testing this afternoon. Mounted the additional heelbar to the LiteDogz on my Fischer Transalps to get an active binding, as well as to get a free pivot mode. Tested different configurations and spring loading of the LiteDogz with T4 boot as well as a pair of older T2 and a pair of Garmont Kenais.

Skinning with the LiteDogz set-up as active bindings without free pivot was not a pleasant experience with limited stride length and tip dive pushing the skins hard against the snow. Not unsurprising was the T2 worst due to their stiff bellow and limited ROM, the Kenais was better due to better flex and ROM and slightly lower weight, the T4 was best due to decent ROM and lighter weight making it easier to lift the complete ski/binding but it was still not a pleasent experiance.

With free pivot the difference was much smaller between the different boots, although the T4s still was most pleasant. Comparing non-pivot (no heelbar) T4 vs. pivoting T2 was more or less equal, the T2 had slightly less resistance forward but the T4 still had slightly longer stride length due to better aft ROM. It may however be noted that the LiteDogz free pivot has a little bit limited range.

Comparing T4 with free-pivot vs. T4 with locked LiteDogz mode revealed a barely notable difference but only when going steeper and just before the free pivots range of motion ended. With better ROM for the free pivot mode of the LiteDogz, the difference might have been greater, but most of the time it is not the limit.

The Kenais performed much better than the T2 due to better ROM and lower weight (3.4kg vs 3.8kgs), despite being a more burly boot on the downhill. However, they was no match for T4s - mainly due to the lower weight (2.7kgs vs 3.4kgs) and slightly better ROM of the ankle.

To conclude, I still think that the 3-pin/T4 combo is decently competitive to free pivoting tele bindings when skinning. If the free pivot of the LiteDogz had better ROM the advantage of the free pivot would have been greater. With active binding the free pivot is a must, as with T2 class boot - but for T4/Excursion class boot it is not worth the increased weight and complexity. Nonetheless, If the skier is very fit, lean and goes very fast, there is a chance that the slightly more limited stride length with the non-free pivoting 3-pins, even with T4s, compared to a free pivot might be a slightly limiting factor.

What went wrong with my stride length on the Solo Sprint race? Before the race I changed to Hammerhead heel risers on my race skis- and I did not test them thoroughly before the race. The climbing bar of the Hammerhead was simply to high, thereby limiting the aft/rear ROM of the ankle, as well as pushing the bellow towards the forward limit. The results was a limitation of the stride length, which was most noticeable on the switchback section where the uphill foot was higher causing more flex.

iBjorn
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Re: 3-pin Racing

Postby iBjorn » Fri May 05, 2017 12:59 am

Sitting on the train to the last skimo race of the season. Going to be a 3400 feet track off-piste with booting section - but no crampon or rapelling moments. This is also the only race I will perform with the Transalp/LiteDogz set-up. For next season I will go for a TTS set-up on that ski, simply because the new Scarpa T4 is a little bit to weak for this ski. I was able to find a brand new Scarpa F1 boot in the race version, so that will be my main universal boot for off-piste and climbing during the next season. However for skimo racing I plan to stay with 3-pins and T4 due to the simplicity and fast transitions. Also planning on modifying the T4s for better ROM and to drop some weight on them for the next season, got some ideas when I looked at the F1 boot.
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Rodbelan
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Re: 3-pin Racing

Postby Rodbelan » Fri May 05, 2017 10:33 am

Keep us informed! Very interesting stuff...

iBjorn
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Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:21 pm

Re: 3-pin Racing

Postby iBjorn » Sat May 06, 2017 1:45 pm

Not much of a race report this time, it had been severe storm in the area with rain during the last week, followed by cold days and nights leading to terrible conditions with ice shielded crust and crud. In the morning there was severe flatlight, I even falled when almost standing still in piste - due to lack of orientation. I can handle ice and crud, but I can not handle severe flatlight in light telegear, so I decided to cancel the race, to my bad luck the sky open up magically just before the start - but it was to late by then for my to participate. Nonetheless, I got a great day in the piste and it was nice to be a skimo spectator. I am still impressed how fast the elite skier is.

A view of part of the track and the weather when I decided to cancel below:

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