Problems turning Fischer S‑Bound skis, remount bindings?

[nemesis256]

I'm an advanced alpine skier, also do classic XC, and new to XCD and telemark. I have Fischer S‑Bound 98 skis with Voile 3-Pin Cable Telemark Binding (the ones with the flexible cable), and Fischer BCX 675 boots.

I've used them twice so far, first on groomed XC trails and then on some shallow backcountry trails where I was breaking a trail. On the groomed trails, when I try to turn, just like steering in alpine, I find it takes a while before the skis start to move, and once they do, it feels like they want to keep sliding sideways. It feels like the tails want to slide out from underneath me and I could fall backwards. On the ungroomed trails, they felt pretty good going up, fairly good traction. Going down, I was mostly using a snowplow for control, with some mild carving. I didn't feel much of a difference in turn control with or without the cables.

What feels like is the biggest problem is that I can't drive the ski forward like I would on a plastic alpine boot. As far as I know they were mounted according to Fischer's recommendations. When I try to balance the ski on one finger, the balance point is very slightly (about 1cm) behind the 3 pins.

How could I have these remounted to make turning easier? If I do that, what may be the disadvantages? Might they not kick and glide as well on groomed XC trails?

[MikeK]

Mounting point sounds like it's in the ballpark of what those skis would want/recommend.

First thing is, don't compare to Alpine. It's never going to feel the same. Those skis are pretty stiffly cambered and you have a relatively soft boot, you need to use less steering and more pressure control to ski them.

I know it will feel totally different and strange, but the basic techniques are all the same. You just cannot cheat You need perfect pressure distribution, perfect balance, and very subtle inputs. Tele can help you get in a somewhat, but not always, more stable position (less side-to-side stability, more fore-aft stability). It's not always my favorite thing to do on harder conditions where you can skid the ski a bit more.

Those cables really only do two things - preload some of the lash in the system, which with leather boots, those are the limiting part, so you probably won't feel much AND transfer force to the tip of the ski when you lift your heel.

I wouldn't expect any miracles but really what you should do is just ski them more. Mastering those skis really takes more than a few outings. Start working on your tele and eventually you'll feel the skis want to come around. It won't be the lightning quick and precise edge control you are used to with modern Alpine equipment, it's more floaty and surfy as in being on a real surfboard.

[lilcliffy]

I'm an advanced alpine skier, also do classic XC, and new to XCD and telemark. I have Fischer S‑Bound 98 skis with Voile 3-Pin Cable Telemark Binding (the ones with the flexible cable), and Fischer BCX 675 boots.

Welcome Nemesis! Do we know your archenemy?

WELL- there is a lot going on here. Please accept my humble opinions and my limited experience.

I do not own the S-98- though I have skied on it MANY times in a number of its incarnations. There are a number of people active on this site that own the current version of the S-98- hopefully, they will help you out. I own the Fischer BCX6- it is two generations older than the current model. I have used the 3-pin cable for about 20 years.

In my limited experience- I would not remount- if you followed Fischer's guidelines. The only reason I would mount that ski at balance point is if I was going to use it as a XC-focused ski- and if I was, the 88 or the 78 would be a better choice. I am assuming that you chose the 98 for it's downhill turning performance?

First off- boot power. IMHO- that boot is not powerful enough to "drive"- or overpower- a ski as big as the S-98. My experience is that I can ride a ski as big as the 98 with boot as soft as the BCX6 in ideal conditions and moderate terrain. But- I would need a much more powerful boot than the BCX6 to overpower that ski!

I've used them twice so far, first on groomed XC trails

I personally hate the 98 in this context. It has a ton of parabolic sidecut, plus a moderately stiff flex- when XC skiing, I find that ski to be all over the place on a dense/groomed surface. That being said- I love the 98 when downhill skiing on a dense/groomed surface.

On the groomed trails, when I try to turn, just like steering in alpine, I find it takes a while before the skis start to move, and once they do, it feels like they want to keep sliding sideways. It feels like the tails want to slide out from underneath me and I could fall backwards.

I really don't think those boots are powerful enough for your alpine techniques to work on a Nordic ski that big...I cannot "steer" a ski that big with that soft a boot.

I didn't feel much of a difference in turn control with or without the cables.

I doubt that you will notice the cable unless you are in a telemark turn. I am not sure how much the cable on this binding will increase lateral stiffness- BUT, it will definitely increase resistance, and reduce heel-lift- transferring more force down into the trailing ski of the telemark.

The 3pin-cable is the only "Telemark" binding that I have any long-term experience with. Although I don't actually use the cable all that much- I GREATLY appreciate the resistance and power transfer of the cable when I want to do some serious downhill skiing. But- on moderate terrain- I don't need the cable.

What feels like is the biggest problem is that I can't drive the ski forward like I would on a plastic alpine boot.

Forgive me if this is not helpful- but, you don't have an alpine boot, an alpine binding, nor an alpine ski...IMHO you are going to need to learn a whole new set of skills in order to effectively turn those 98s- especially with such a soft boot.

As far as I know they were mounted according to Fischer's recommendations. When I try to balance the ski on one finger, the balance point is very slightly (about 1cm) behind the 3 pins.

Forward of balance point makes sense to me with this ski. The 98 is a full-on hybrid XCD ski. The forward mounting point both facilitates turn initiation as well as climbing traction. Mounting at balance point will make them moe "balanced" in a XC kick and glide context- but, I don't see this as the strength of this particular ski.

How could I have these remounted to make turning easier? If I do that, what may be the disadvantages? Might they not kick and glide as well on groomed XC trails?

Don't think I can help you here. My BC Nordic touring kits that are intended not to sacrifice XC performance are all mounted at balance point. The couple of kits (XCD Guide and 10th Mtn) that are setup to be slanted towards downhill are mounted forward of BP- just like your 98s.

I'll leave it there as a starting point for me in this discussion! Hope I am more help than hinderance.

[Woodserson]

Where do you live, Nemesis? How much do you weigh, what length did you get?

I was where you were a few years ago.

I am on my phone and DONE looking at screens today, pardon my brevity. I have a long answer for later and a short one for now: Time + practice + Mike and Allen's Really Cool Telemark Tips (book) + watching videos + speed = Success. Some patient tele friends are useful also. (That's why I'm wondering where you live)

It's worth it. Welcome.

[nemesis256]

I am assuming that you chose the 98 for it's downhill turning performance?

Correct. What I described in my first post about groomed trails and shallow backcountry pretty much sums up what I'm planning to do with this setup. I was actually a little surprised as to how well they did kick and glide on groomed trails. I had read that people say they don't track straight, but it doesn't seem to bother me.

First off- boot power. IMHO- that boot is not powerful enough to "drive"- or overpower- a ski as big as the S-98. My experience is that I can ride a ski as big as the 98 with boot as soft as the BCX6 in ideal conditions and moderate terrain. But- I would need a much more powerful boot than the BCX6 to overpower that ski!

Figured as much. I got a softer boot so I could go uphill and on flats easily. A plastic boot, even with a walk mode, just wouldn't work as well for kick and glide as far as I know....but I could be wrong. How well would a Scarpa T4 kick and glide?

Forward of balance point makes sense to me with this ski. The 98 is a full-on hybrid XCD ski. The forward mounting point both facilitates turn initiation as well as climbing traction.

That's why I was asking about mounting point. I was wondering if even more forward would help with turn initiation.

Where do you live, Nemesis? How much do you weigh, what length did you get?

We're actually in the same state, I'm in North Conway. I'm 130lbs and I got the 169 length. I also found a post from you from last Feb/March where you remounted some skis. That's part of what got me thinking about this.

[Cannatonic]

I made the same transition, from stiff alpine boots to gradually trying heavier XC gear until I started doing telemark. I wouldn't move the mounting point of the bindings just yet, although I wouldn't rule it out for the future.

Your legs are still trying to make alpine turns, they want to lean hard into the tounge of the boots to flex the skis, but that can't happen with XCD boots (btw agree that it's too much ski for your boot, I would check out the stiffer Crispi leather 75mm boots). Overall I find tele turns are made with your weight more centered or leaning back. If you move the bindings up your weight will be more over the scales zone and slow down your glide speed. Also if you go forward far enough you'll start dragging your tails in turns.

When you make a tele turn, the weight of inside ski (bent knee) is centered on the toe, while the weight is centered on the mid-point of the foot on the outside ski, just like alpine. So having the bindings centered a little farther back on BP is a compromise that's made for the bent-knee leg to help you control the ski. If that foot is too far forward your tail could start to drag.

FWIW, for XCD I find the Sbound 98/Madshus Epoch to be too much sidecut for me. I like something closer to an XC ski like the Sbound 78. I find the width and deep sidecut interfere with simple edging to control speed on hardpack. I don't care for skis with more sidecut than around 20-22mm for touring. My favorite touring ski is something like the Sbound 78, E99 or E109. It's easier for wimpy boots to angle & edge narrower skis. All IMHO of course.

[Cannatonic]

btw I also found the Voile cable didn't do much for me, when things get wild it usually pulls off my heel, I think my size 13.5 boots are too long for the flexible cable, I switched to Rottefella Super Tele to keep it simple.

Dennis at Ragged Mountain in Intervale is my go-to for these issues, he's mounted & re-mounted a bunch of bindings for me, great guy and a telemark expert from back in the day.

[nemesis256]

Dennis at Ragged Mountain in Intervale is my go-to for these issues, he's mounted & re-mounted a bunch of bindings for me, great guy and a telemark expert from back in the day.

That's actually where I bought this setup from. Quite a fan of that store, they seem to be the only ones around here that satisfy the XCD niche. I was just in there feeling a couple other boots, thinking about whether or not I made the wrong decision, and I still can't decide. They had the BCX 875, which feels a little stiffer, but I'm not sure it would make a big difference. That boot also isn't on Fischer's website, so I suspect it's been discontinued. Ragged Mountain also had a light plastic boot, Garmont Excursion I think, and that would probably work well, but from feeling the boot, I think kicking and gliding would be compromised.

You're the second person here to say that my boots are under powered for the ski. What type of boot would you guys pair the skis with? Would a leather boot like you mentioned be the best, or are there other options?

Also, would a booster strap (the ones used on alpine boots) be of any help with my current boots? Or anything I can stick in there to make them stiffer?

[lilcliffy]

What I described in my first post about groomed trails and shallow backcountry pretty much sums up what I'm planning to do with this setup.

Well- the Fischer BCX6 boot is plenty of power for this. Keep a compact stance- flex and pressure your ball of foot on the rear ski. The S-98 in my experience is a VERY "turny" XCD ski. The current model with Nordic rocker has even better turn initiation than the older incarnations of this ski. The S-98 WANTS to turn in my experience.

I was actually a little surprised as to how well they did kick and glide on groomed trails. I had read that people say they don't track straight, but it doesn't seem to bother me.

Well- this is cool. It does bother me- but I am a weirdo. The flex pattern of the S-98 is definitely significantly stiffer than a similar ski like the Epoch- the S-98 will offer much more "kick" and "pop" than the Epoch.

Figured as much. I got a softer boot so I could go uphill and on flats easily. A plastic boot, even with a walk mode, just wouldn't work as well for kick and glide as far as I know....but I could be wrong. How well would a Scarpa T4 kick and glide?

Well- I LOVE a XC kick and glide backcountry boot for distance-oriented backcountry skiing. IMHO, there is a HUGELY significant difference in the range of motion and kick and glide performance of a BC-XC boot (intended for K&G) and a "Telemark"" touring boot like the T4. In this day and age a boot like the T4 is so light and flexible compared to more powerful "Telemark" boots, that many serious downhill-focused free-heel skiers don't even consider the T4 a "downhill" boot- they consider it a K&G boot. BUT- from a traditional XCD perspective the T4 is a downhill-focused boot. I own the T4 (previous generation)- and I love it for Nordic touring when I want some pretty serious downhill power- but it feels like a "ball and chain" around your ankle compared to a boot like the BCX6. That being said- IMHO- the T4 offers a much wider range of motion than stiffer, taller "Telemark" boots. As I no longer tour in extreme mountainous terrain- I have no need for a boot more powerful than the T4- AND, I don't even need the power of the T4 for most of the Nordic touring I do on moderate terrain with up to 500m verticals.

Your boot is more than enough to ride the S-98 from the point of view of traditional XCD or "telemark" technique. I emphasize the lower case "telemark" because it wasn't that long ago that monstrously powerful "Telemark" was merely the stuff of dreams. From a traditional prespective the Fischer BCX6 is a significantly powerful Nordic touring boot.

(If anyone doubts what can be done on a BC-XC boot like the BCX6, check out this video of Gamme the Elder doing power telemarks with BCX6-NNNBC and Asnes Gamme 54s:
http://www.fftv.no/fjellskiskolen-ep-1-svingteknikk-12)

What I meant by your boot not being "powerful" enough- was from an "Alpine" perspective. I do use "Alpine" techniques on Nordic gear- BUT, only when my boots-bindings are powerful enough to overpower the ski. You can certainly downhill ski on the S-98 with the BCX6- but, you are not going to be able to overpower a ski as big as the S-98 without moving up to full-on "Telemark" power. A boot like the T4 or Excursion is entry-level "Telemark" power. With a boot as powerful as the T4 I can easily do full-on Alpine turns on a ski like the S-98. BUT- I ain't going to XC fly with the T4.

The BCX6 is certainly "enough" for the S-98- depending on technique.

That's why I was asking about mounting point. I was wondering if even more forward would help with turn initiation.

I suppose it might- but it might also hinder the skis performance in deep snow...That ski does have "Nordic rocker", but it doesn't have a truly rockered tip...Personally, I would expect that ski to tip-dive in deep snow if you move forward of Fischer's recommendations...

[lilcliffy]

Mike and Allen's Really Cool Telemark Tips (book)

I LOVE this book. It is in my opinion, the best "telemark" book that I know of in the English language.