Steep and deep backcountry Nordic ski

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lilcliffy
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Re: Steep and deep backcountry Nordic ski

Postby lilcliffy » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:41 pm

Woodserson wrote:LC

I'm not too far away from you as far as environmental factors go. Similar terrain, similar woods, similar snowpack qualities, though you get far more it seems. I would seriously consider the Objective BC if I was in your shoes. If it's what we think it is, it'll get you out there easily (light!) and it will turn awesome in a wide array of snow conditions that we usually get, and it can possibly take different boot weights depending on skills and conditions. Without having skied any of those, that's how I would solve this particular problem.

Yes, yes, yes and yes.

Objective or Objective BC?
The pursuit of XCD balance: cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry

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Woodserson
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Re: Steep and deep backcountry Nordic ski

Postby Woodserson » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:44 pm

I would go with the BC, only because of the variety of snow conditions that I often see and my penchant to ski as much as possible, wherever, no matter the snow condition. Loose granular springtime corn on top of a firm base being one of my favorites.

I love wax, but on my longer touring skis when the conditions are right. Kicker skins have their place, but can be slower than scales IMO.

I think the real question is, what binding? Hardwire? Voile Traverse (3pin cable with riser)?

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lowangle al
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Re: Steep and deep backcountry Nordic ski

Postby lowangle al » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:09 pm

Cliffy, I did mean on a packed surface. The reason why big skiis and big boots are slower is because of the energy it takes to do it, and the weight. If you were to wax up your fattest skis with your plastic boots I'll bet you could K&G pretty fast. The question is how long can you keep it up.

As far as doing long tours for turns the problem is having the right gear for the down once you are there. The objective may be the best ski for this with a light boot. If you were going to go plastic boots there are a lot of good choices.

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lilcliffy
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Re: Steep and deep backcountry Nordic ski

Postby lilcliffy » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:56 pm

Woodserson wrote:I would go with the BC, only because of the variety of snow conditions that I often see and my penchant to ski as much as possible, wherever, no matter the snow condition. Loose granular springtime corn on top of a firm base being one of my favorites.

I can't help but lean that way also- this also leads to a waxless and a waxable...Wish I could test these skis out before I fork over all that cash!!! I would love to try the Asnes Tind as well...integrated kicker skin and all...

I love wax, but on my longer touring skis when the conditions are right. Kicker skins have their place, but can be slower than scales IMO.

Well- I think- all things being equal- kicker skins offer more grip than scales, at the expense of glide. HOWEVER- I have been doing some limited experimentation with the kicker skins of different widths and material...I think if one gets it just right- an integrated kicker skin can offer just as much glide as scales, but with better grip. The trimming of the skin length is another factor as well- especially for XC K&G.

I think the real question is, what binding? Hardwire? Voile Traverse (3pin cable with riser)?

Whoa...this is really tough for me...especially because my budget is actually REALLY tight at this point in my life...

I am so tempted to snap an NNNBC binding on a ski like the Objective...but if I end up wanting a stiffer boot than NNNBC has to offer, I am going to be kicking myself in the ASSSSSS...

So- let's assume 75mm for a moment...with T4 and Ski March boots...

I am very turned on by the 3-pin hardwire. It remains unclear to me whether the hardwire is worth it (AGAIN- I wish I could test these damn things). The hardwire is ALOT more dough than the 3-pin cable- especailly with the weak $CAN...I have a 3-pin-cable binding that I bought on clearance a few years ago for $50CAN...The 3-pin hardwire MUST offer some major step up in performance to be worth it to me...And- I wonder whether my preference for touring-oriented boots are burly enough to take advantage of the hardwires...

BUT- I MUST try and keep my perspective...NNNBC has truly replaced the 3-pin cable for me...In other words- for me- NNNBC- and some fine boots- are all I need for distance oriented XCD skiing. (If I was doing long-distance tours in truly mountainous terrain I would still be looking at the 3pin-cable/hardwire)

The desire to hold onto the 3-pin may be a legacy of the past...

SO- if this is really going to be a DEDICATED steep and deep YO-YO kit, then maybe I should really be considering something with a free-pivot mode...If the primary "objective" is to climb and turn- with frequent low vertical transitions- perhaps I should really be considering a free-pivot binding like the Switchback?

If I am truly willing to sacrifice XC performance in favor of efficient and fun climbing/turning- why not go one step further and get a full-on climbing-turning binding?

I investigated a new ridge-valley formation in the upper Nashwaak this weekend- 300+ verticals; 20-80% slopes; open hardwood and softwood glades; 2+metres of snow; 5kms from an XCD access point; at least 40 hecatres of XCD terrain to climb and play in...

I was on 205cm Fischer E-109s, with Alpina Alaska NNNBC. Ideal kit for covering distance in that terrain- and the downhills were still wicked- BUT- I was definitely reminded that the E-109 is a XCOUNTRY ski!!!! :shock: :D
The pursuit of XCD balance: cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry

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lowangle al
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Re: Steep and deep backcountry Nordic ski

Postby lowangle al » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:51 pm

LC It may not have been clear how my previous post relates to your decision. The point I was trying to make was, with the same boot binding combination the wider ski won't be noticably slower, it may even be faster. So if you were going to be using your T4s with a hardwire lets say, I don't think the vector would be much slower if any than the objective.


If you do most of your touring with waxed skis and that's what you like I would get the smooth version of a ski. The only downfall would be waxing for wet and spring conditions.

Kicker skins have their place but if they are narrow they might not contact the snow while sidehilling on firm snow giving you no grip.

If $ is tight see if those tua sumos are available on ebay. It would be a good match with the T4. It is a ski that would be fun in the powder and not so wide that they wouldn't perform on something steep and icy. So far for me it seems to be the most perfect ski for leather boots in a variety of conditions.

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fisheater
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Re: Steep and deep backcountry Nordic ski

Postby fisheater » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:41 pm

Lilcliffy,
The Ski March is a really good downhill boot. I think I ski my s-112's better with the Ski March then I do with the T-4's. I was out at the resort this weekend, my son and I are now splitting at the top, and meeting at the middle or bottom. I got a chance to make some downhill laps on steeper terrain, for the first time in years. I am not saying the Ski March is a better boot than the T-4, I just was much smoother with my back left foot with the Ski March. Right back foot was the same on both. It is just a lack of skiing time, but it does say something about the power of the Ski March sole.
As far as a Hardwire on the Ski March, I can say that the HW did not over power the sole of the boot. I made no adjustment in the HW, from the T-4 to the Ski March. The Ski March has a shorter sole, I believe it is a little shorter at the back of the heel. I skied with less activity in the binding, than what I would ski the T-4, but I didn't need it. The Ski March does not require any greater activity than what is found on the 3-pin cable.
Here's the rub, I think you would need the riser of a 3-pin Traverse or of a Hardwire for a ski as wide underfoot as the Vector (96mm at the waist). Al stated that he skis the Vector with plastic because of this width. I think I could ski a Vector with the Ski March, but I would buy a 3-pin Hardwire. The reason being I need the power of the Hardwire to properly flex a T-4, and I would want the option to ski plastic boots. I am just not that skilled, I have had long time off. I start getting more serious about backcountry, and 2 of the last 3 winters have been poor.
I also read that Al said he was looking to put some HW's on his Vectors. I only say that because HW's and 3-pin cables have the same mounting pattern, I am not sure about SB's. Just because I couldn't turn Vectors well with only a 3-pin cable, perhaps you can? You could always put a more active binding, with a riser later.
Have you considered the BM 3-pin Spike? Connyro said it had a pretty nice riser to help leverage the ski. For me I would buy the 3-pin HW. I like a little cable assist with the Ski March, although I can get by without it. I need the HW help with the T-4. The binding upcharge is a small percentage of what the ski cost is. If I was spending $625 for the ski, I would spend an extra $100 for the binding.
I will spend next season on the USGI, evaluating how wax works for me. I really liked my limited time on wax this year. I will not be purchasing two Voile skis, I really want to put the time on wax, to see if when my time comes to purchase one of these Voile skis, if it can be wax. I know I like waxables, not sure if it would be the right choice.
I look forward to you making your purchase Gareth, it may be the best Lilcliffy review of all time!

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lowangle al
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Re: Steep and deep backcountry Nordic ski

Postby lowangle al » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:54 pm

Fisheater, I would never take my BCs to the resort. Not that they wouldn't work, my wife wears hers, but she likes that they go a little slower.

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fisheater
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Re: Steep and deep backcountry Nordic ski

Postby fisheater » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:18 pm

Al I finally mounted up a set of resort skis, only to have a problem. I think the springs on my used Hammerheads are shot. More on that later. I skied my USGI's with my son one morning, I think I would have skied them all day, I was having fun, but I wanted to tell Lilcliffy how the Ski Marches handled HW bindings. The next day I started out with my new resort set-up. Well the Hammerheads at 3 were way less active than my Hardwires. They were so neutral, I stopped skiing and changed the HH's to 5. The first run down, something felt funny, then the ski came off. Not going slow either. It came off two more times on the way down, going slow. I pulled the spring, it is about a 1/4" shorter than the new ones that came with the bindings. I guess I should have put the new ones in from the start, but the most active bindings I skied were Superloops. I guess I was wary of too much activity. Not anymore.

anemic
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Re: Steep and deep backcountry Nordic ski

Postby anemic » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:46 am

fisheater, it was fun to see you on the snow last weekend! Does it look like you will be able to repair your HHs using the spare new springs you have? That would be great.

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fisheater
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Re: Steep and deep backcountry Nordic ski

Postby fisheater » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:19 pm

anemic wrote:fisheater, it was fun to see you on the snow last weekend! Does it look like you will be able to repair your HHs using the spare new springs you have? That would be great.


Anemic, I can only say that the spring is obviously fatigued when comparing it to the new ones. I need to get some new screws, the Gorilla Glue held well, and I do not want a third time with these screws.
It was nice to meet you and Mrs. Anemic. My son was very impressed to see one of the few Michigan members skis at "our" hill. I didn't get to see you ski, except for glimpses, however I was very impressed with the Love Johnny smoothness exhibited by Mrs. Anemic the few turns I saw her make. My son was very impressed when he saw the both of you heading in, while skiing in front of him.


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