NTN newbie, should I get the Meidjo 2.1 or Outlaw X ?

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Paté chinois
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Re: NTN newbie, should I get the Meidjo 2.1 or Outlaw X ?

Postby Paté chinois » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:28 pm

Johnny, Tom,
Thanks a lot for all the advice !

You can order them at TelemarkDown and return them if they don't fit... They are very cool, and also the NA distributor for Crispi. Or closer, Mario in Bromont has World Cups in stock since yesterday.


I was planning to order Crispi boots from Telemarkdown once I had a chance to try them. I know you can return them if they don't fit but that would mean paying twice for the shipping (which is amount 55$ one way since I'm from Montreal, Canada). Who is Mario in Bromont ? Are you talking Bromont in Quebec ?

Can't wait to try my new set up !! I hope we have a good winter with lot's of snow !!

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LoveJohnny
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Re: NTN newbie, should I get the Meidjo 2.1 or Outlaw X ?

Postby LoveJohnny » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:36 am

Yep, Bromont QC... I can't think of any other Bromont anywhere else on the planet? 8-)

Mario is sort of an underground Scarpa, Crispi, Rottefella and 22D distributor... (Dynastar and Goode too...) Tell him Johnny from TelemarkTalk sent you... ;)

You can order from TelemarkDown and have the boots shipped in Richford VT and pick them up there... It's just five minutes from the QC border... Shipping is only 10$ down there... PM me for details... I'm in Sutton if you wanna try the Comps or the World Cups...
/...\ Peace, Love, Telemark and Tofu /...\
"Your heel (and mind) is not really free until you cut the cable..." -Me

Rodbelan
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Re: NTN newbie, should I get the Meidjo 2.1 or Outlaw X ?

Postby Rodbelan » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:33 am

Mario Filion de Filion sport... C'est le représentant Scarpa pour l'Est. Il semble aussi distribuer Crispi selon un des posts précédents...

XYZ1952
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Re: NTN newbie, should I get the Meidjo 2.1 or Outlaw X ?

Postby XYZ1952 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:23 am

Je suis à Shefford, coordonnées de Mario Filion Sport à Bromont SVP??

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LoveJohnny
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Re: NTN newbie, should I get the Meidjo 2.1 or Outlaw X ?

Postby LoveJohnny » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:22 pm

XYZ1952 wrote:Je suis à Shefford, coordonnées de Mario Filion Sport à Bromont SVP??


What a nice, creative, helpful first post... 8-)

filionski@videotron.ca
Il demeure sur le Mont Soleil...
/...\ Peace, Love, Telemark and Tofu /...\
"Your heel (and mind) is not really free until you cut the cable..." -Me

teleclub
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Re: NTN newbie, should I get the Meidjo 2.1 or Outlaw X ?

Postby teleclub » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:16 pm

Paté chinois wrote:...one of the main reasons I'm going to NTN is to get the advantage of a step-in binding which the Freeride isn't really...

Be aware the Outlaw and OutlawX aren’t really step in either if you value ski brakes. The brakes on the Outlaw are hard to use and balky with other problems. The people I’ve met using them to prefer to use the Outlaw with leases because they were constantly dealing with brake issues that required bending over anyway. If you can get the brakes to work or use leashes, the Outlaws have true step-in otherwise.

Just for comparison since you’re not a Rotte fan, the NTN Freedom work out to be fully step-in because I use them like TomH describes. Also the Freedom brakes work easily and flawlessly. When I saw on youTube how ppl close the Freedom toe latches with the boot toe, and then the other ski, I thought it might be a tricky skill to learn but it worked easily first time I tried it and my wife learned it just as quickly.

Highly recommending NTN. The Freedoms have been great.

Harris
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Re: NTN newbie, should I get the Meidjo 2.1 or Outlaw X ?

Postby Harris » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:34 pm

I've used NTN extensively. I've had Freerides, the Meidjos and then Outlaws. Concerning the Meidjos you might want to look farther back in the forum topics (last season) because there was a post of mine that went into great detail the problems with the Meidjo 2.0 and included photos of the issues.

The new 2.1 I have not tried, and it looks like the designer tried some simple fixes to address the serious longevity problems with the fore binding's aft mount ripping off the ski. His fixes may work, but I'd wait a season before buying a pair again. The tech toe when put alongside an standard alpine tech toe (like a Dynafit) is significantly under sprung and the materials used look much weaker/thinner/cruder. But the worst part about the Meidjo is that a single binding mount requires 10 holes, including the 2 for the heel plate. 8 holes in the toe plate is a lot, and should you ever ditch the binding (I did due to breakage), you will no be able to get another good mount on the skis (no holes drilled for the Meidjo will cross with another binding and at best at least 2 holes will come close to touching. That is a not a problem if you are mounting up disposable skis and can risk a weak remount. The binding does however ski very well; much, much better than the Freeride. It is not an easy binding to step into though. You sorta learn it, but it can be a bit tedious to get the pins to snap in right (just like most tech toes), especially if done on a real slope and in pow. I did not use the brakes because I ski primarily a 95mm waisted ski (K2 Pinnacle for all mountain and on groom days Volkl Race Tigers matched to yellow/black TX Pros) and the brakes were too wide for my preference. They do not pull inward once up and stick out pretty far. It kinda sucks using leashes, but I can live with that. Hell anything is better than the three pins I started out on. Onto the 22 Designs Outlaw.

Outlaws are a bomber binding. They ski every bit as close to a supercharged duckbill as the Meidjo. Some had problems with the first gen step in. I did not. It is difficult to actuate on a bench, but underfoot I never had a problem snapping it in. I did however double the pads under the cams to aid the process. The new Outlaw I gather addresses the complaints. As for durability, again it is a bomber design. I ski my gear hard and bump on them, and the Outlaws now have many days underfoot. By comparison I destroyed my Meidjos in just a couple weeks. And... the Outlaw mount holes match up with both their Vice and Axel bindings, should you ever go back to duckbills, which I did. I did not buy or mount brakes due to the same issue as the Meidjo (they didn't pull in and hung way out to the sides).

As for releasability I have a reconstructed ACL thanks to using Freerides, and the experience left me this impression: no NTN will release when the heel is raised, which is probably when you will most need it to. Do not buy a tele binding based on releasability IMO. Like others have said, there is no DIN tele binding, and that's for a reason.

Just an aside, another IMO is that one of the nice things about duckbills is that there is a bit more give than the NTN, which to me makes them safer on the knees. Other guys prefer reinforced concrete, and haven't had the bad luck I did with the ACL. I also prefer the way the duckbill telemark skis, and now use my old Garment Garas matched with Axel and Vice bindings. I feel the are snappier and more ultra controllable, especially when first transitioning into a new turn. So I go duckbill now even if it is a bit more work to balance when the heels are on the top plate. It is a tradeoff.

Harris
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Re: NTN newbie, should I get the Meidjo 2.1 or Outlaw X ?

Postby Harris » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:01 am

I should also add one thing... Back on the old telemark tips, when NTN first came out, there was a lot of quarreling as to whether NTN was a better telemarking binding. One of the central issues was that to duckbill telemarkers, and this was actually a rollover from newer, stiffer boots and seriously more active binding discussions, was that NTN was a much more "tippy toe" telemarking binding than old school was. There was much arguing about it. The Rott NTN was the only NTN during that time.

Having learned the trade on leathers before plastics came about or were accepted, but having made the switches as they developed, I started tele skiing in 1982, it is true the newest gear was and is much more tippy toe, upright tele. The boots and bindings don't flex back at BOF (Ball Of Foot) like they did in the old days, and this is much more pronounced using Rott NTN. To old schoolers today's telemark is most often a pseudo-mark. More parallel with fake tele thrown in for style points. But that is another matter. The real problem IMO with tippy toe tele is that at initial turn initiation the inside ski swims for a split second more than any duckbill binding does. IMO a lot of guys learned to deal with this and quickly moved past and learned to control the matter. And I did too. But I didn't like it. I wasn't as confident on it, turning wise. And I can't snap it with the same quick authority. It is all a matter of give and take. NTN is much less taxing to ski. The Meidjo was designed to ski more like a duckbill in this regard, giving a better BOF sensation with pretty significant initial heel off the top plate pulldown. In that regard it works as advertised. In that regard it works very, very well. And that is because unlike a duckbill active binding, even bindings such as the VICE, it still pulls the heal down much more significantly throughout the range whereas the Vice only after the heel is significantly raised, which at that point comes on strong. Rott NTN really feel strange in this regard. It comes on almost too strong and too early before a hard edge can be set, which in turn causes an instant inside ski tip swim when pushed. And then when the edge is set hard it is almost too ski stopping, biting hard, which is what snapped my ACL in two, tore my meniscus and fractured my calf bone where my LCL attached. Small mistake on east cost ice resulted in an unforgiving bite that resulted in large scale damage. However, NTN gives great stability early at heel lift off and therefore confidence when landing jumps in parallel or skiing through crud etc in parallel or etc. You see what I'm suggesting? You probably wouldn't do well these days entering an extreme/Freeride tele skiing comp on anything less than NTN. Not because it telies better, but because it significantly holds the heel down better for paralleling through big thing landings and blasting parallel through crap. Plus it pulls you back upright, saving quad juice. It is somewhere between an alpine hold down and a duckbill heel lift. Some say edge control. As far as turning in actual tele I call bullshit on that. I can snap turn a duckbill rapid-fire at will way better than on Rott NTN. But that is just my opinion and style. That said, I like the Meidjo except for the significant matter or durability. The binding is still in a crude experimental state of development IMO, and Pierre probably can't afford to make the big production changes needed to address his bindings durability faults. On the other hand, although even more crude, basic Frankenstein, but much more built on proven tech, the Outlaw works almost as good as far as turning sensation, and is far more stronger a design. However, the Meidjo is much more cutting edge and has way more room for taking the binding tech further and eventually better.

TeleHarry
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Re: NTN newbie, should I get the Meidjo 2.1 or Outlaw X ?

Postby TeleHarry » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:04 am

LoveJohnny wrote:They all release, the Freeride, the Meidjo, the Outlaw and all the exotic tech variations. The Meidjo does have a more advanced release system. BUT...

My opinion is that one should never base his decision on releasability. Unless it's DIN approved, it's never going to mean "safety". Of course a releasable binding is technically better than a non-releasable one. But hey, this is telly, not alpine skiing. There is no way to fully imply a safe release system due to the nature of the sport. So to me, releasability doesn't really mean anything when taking a decision...

I have a history of problem with Rottefella binding and I'm not confident in their product

I honestly don't have any preference in NTN bindings, I think they all have pros and cons. But telemark, especially with the force involved in NTN, is terrible on equipment. So keep in mind that you will probably have a history of problems no matter what NTN binding you choose. The good thing is that all these companies offer very, very good customer support and replacement parts are most of the time available at no charge.

If there was one perfect binding on the market, it would be the only one available... Why do you think there are so many options out there? 8-)

As a survivor of the old "Telemark Talk" days, it's refreshing to read such level-headed and kind responses to the topic.
I've used 75mm for years, then jumped onto the NTN bandwagon when they came out, mainly because I'm a patroller and the pseudo step-in (no leash) and brakes (no run-aways) appealed to me. I still use Freerides, even in the back-country, because I'm a bigger guy and the weight doesn't bother me.
I will eventually try other options (I have a set of un-mounted Freedoms---just tring to figure out what BC skis to put them on). ALL of the newer non-Rottefella NTN systems are amazing to me; In fact, I'm amazed they exist at all, because of the time and expense of development.
Keep the discussion going!
Harry

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LoveJohnny
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Re: NTN newbie, should I get the Meidjo 2.1 or Outlaw X ?

Postby LoveJohnny » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:58 pm

Harris wrote:To old schoolers today's telemark is most often a pseudo-mark. More parallel with fake tele thrown in for style points. But that is another matter.

I totally agree... It's a different sport man... I once had this discussion with a CANSI level 3 member... I was saying how the whole BOF technique doesn't apply on NTN, especially due to the boots stiffness... We were not able to agree on anything... :lol:

Rott NTN really feel strange in this regard. It comes on almost too strong and too early before a hard edge can be set

Hummm... I honestly like Rotte NTN a lot better than the Outlaw because of that... I think the "pull" activates just at the perfect timing on the Freeride... While I find it way too early on the Outlaw... Well, at least for me...

You have a few milliseconds on the Freeride without pull for perfect (and fast) weight transfer, while on the Outlaw, you have to fight as soon as you lift the heel... (Red tubes at 4 on Rotte and normal springs at 2 on the 22Ds...)

ALL of the newer non-Rottefella NTN systems are amazing to me; In fact, I'm amazed they exist at all, because of the time and expense of development.

The more we buy them, the better they will become...! That said, I think I really need to put the new Meidjos to the test in the near future... (Not for carving on ice of course...)
/...\ Peace, Love, Telemark and Tofu /...\
"Your heel (and mind) is not really free until you cut the cable..." -Me


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