What is camber?

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Grampatele

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Re: What is camber?

Postby Grampatele » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:25 am

With you Fisheater.....They must think we are a bunch of ding dongs when it comes to wax....The ski swap e 109's I have are 178 which is way to short but do they ever turn......zowie!.......Cruise straight and true....Go up hills like nothing.....As far as deep powder when we get serious dumps my only ski that will keep me from going straight down is the Noodle that Dostie sold me....But they are dogs going to and from....Head them down build up some speed and all is well.....So in the event we get those dumps I have re conditioned some old 215 e 99's....If I could get a set of 109's with wax I just might spend the bucks....Don over at the Nordic Barn in Stowe laughs and says your the only person who has ever wanted the 109's....Still for an old dork the 109's might be the ticket....(Make me believe the asnes are as good and I might be tempted to help them out......).....Finally when on 99's the double camber really helps in the bush....When you go into a dip....the skis allow you to drop the middle of them down low without much pressure on the middle.....the moment you exit.....you are lifted as if by magic and turning an almost unweighted ski makes for awesome turns....Energy ski! TM

Cannatonic

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Re: What is camber?

Postby Cannatonic » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:40 pm

Grampateleman, it's time to be convinced of Asnes. I got the "NATO combat" last year in 200cm instead of E109, and love them. They ONLY come in wax - no hablo fishscales! If you're doing a custom order it's worth it to get Asnes.

The durability is key! You don't realize how thin the edges on the new E99/E109's are, they are not going to hold up to KTB abuse. The Asnes edges are twice as thick, the NATO Combats are 20% heavier and more durable, closer to your vintage E109. You would like Nansen and Gamme54 too. NATO Combat and Ingstad are 84 at the tip, Nansen 76, and Gamme54 is their E99 clone, 68 at the tip.

Grampatele

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Re: What is camber?

Postby Grampatele » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:24 am

Jeesum I have a Shed full of Asnes......course they are wood and came from the early 1970's.....Might be time to try something new but I know the 109's and have no experience on Asnes except when I pull out the woodies and play with them...Kinda staying in touch with the past....So LJ got the 195's....He's a lot lighter than me....Can't say I go with recommendations much....These would be a cc cruiser....Go out....search for the greatest desert on earth....perfect powder then get the second greatest thrill on earth.....Ski it....Up till now the best for me in our world back here are the e99....e109.....Rebound....Different....Asnes.....TM

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Johnny

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Re: What is camber?

Postby Johnny » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:01 am

So TM, you keep breaking Europas every year but your 40yo Asnes skis are still intact...
Does that ring a bell? ;)
/...\ Peace, Love, Telemark and Tofu /...\
"And if you like to risk your neck, we'll boom down Sutton in old Quebec..."

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lilcliffy

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Re: What is camber?

Postby lilcliffy » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:07 am

fisheater wrote:Gareth, I weigh about 185, would my weight be over compressing my Andes USGI 200's in the striding sense. I enjoy the ski, and am generally capable of making decent telemark turns depending upon the snow conditions. I am just trying to better understand your dissertation. It seems as though I may not have experienced the full double camber experience. If they were available in a waxable model you would have sold me an e-109, a foot of fresh is pretty good in these parts.

Hi Bob,
I hate to say it- my students certainly hate it- but IMHO "it depends".

Certainly, if you can easily and evenly squash those Asnes USGIs, then I would suggest they are too short to offer a very effective "wax pocket". NOW- that being said, those are stiff skis, so they are likely still offering pretty decent K&G performance.

I have the 210cm Asnes USGIs and there is a defined- if shallow- wax pocket when I stand on them evenly. Those skis remain one of my favourite BC-XC skis- they have such a smooth full-length flex to them- despite how stiff/resistant they are, I find it very easy to pressure them and get good traction. The full-length flex, coupled with the full 68mm underfoot make them remarkably stable and supportive in deep snow as well.

Sounds like the 200cm is performing a bit more like a "camber-an-a-half" ski like the E109 and Combat Nato. When I stand evenly on the 205cm E109 and 210cm Combat Nato, the wax pocket is completely squashed- making them much easier to flex/pressure in a turn, as well as better climbers than the more cambered and stiffer 210cm E99 and 210cm USGI. HOWEVER- that low-profile resistant second camber is still there on the E109/Combat Nato- it may not preserve a truly effective "wax pocket", but you can certainly feel it when you squeeze/pressure them in a downward kick and release- both of these skis offer way more effective K&G performance than a single-cambered ski like the Epoch. And neither the E109 or the Combat Nat have a completely smooth, round reverse flex- due to that stiff low profile second camber.

For distance-oriented BC skiing in hilly/steep terrain, the "camber-and-a-half" profile is my preference- decent XC performance (especially on fresh soft snow)- decent climbing performance- and I can still evenly pressure them and truly carve an evenly-pressured telemark turn.

I suppose a SHORT double-camber ski will perform more like a "camber-and-a-half" ski...But, truly double-cambered skis still have a higher camber and a stiffer flex underfoot...

I guess I always wonder what the point is of a short double-cambered ski...

But- many skiers love them- and they certainly offer resistance-energy and "pop" to turn transitions and to K&G...

For me, if I want Nordic ski short enough to be able to evenly pressure them, then I prefer a longer ski with less camber and a softer flex.

Would be very interesting for you to compare/contrast your 200cm USGI with an equivalent-length Combat Nato/E109.
The pursuit of XCD balance: cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry

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lilcliffy

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Re: What is camber?

Postby lilcliffy » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:36 am

To sum-up from my perspective, in terms of intended function:

1) single camber function = effective edge= downhill turns

2) double camber function = effective wax pocket= XC diagonal stride

3) camber-and-a-half function = balance between effective edge/wax pocket = xcountry and downhill performance
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satsuma

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Re: What is camber?

Postby satsuma » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:16 pm

lilcliffy wrote:
fisheater wrote:Gareth, I weigh about 185, would my weight be over compressing my Andes USGI 200's in the striding sense. I enjoy the ski, and am generally capable of making decent telemark turns depending upon the snow conditions. I am just trying to better understand your dissertation. It seems as though I may not have experienced the full double camber experience. If they were available in a waxable model you would have sold me an e-109, a foot of fresh is pretty good in these parts.

Hi Bob,
I hate to say it- my students certainly hate it- but IMHO "it depends".

Certainly, if you can easily and evenly squash those Asnes USGIs, then I would suggest they are too short to offer a very effective "wax pocket". NOW- that being said, those are stiff skis, so they are likely still offering pretty decent K&G performance.

I have the 210cm Asnes USGIs and there is a defined- if shallow- wax pocket when I stand on them evenly. Those skis remain one of my favourite BC-XC skis- they have such a smooth full-length flex to them- despite how stiff/resistant they are, I find it very easy to pressure them and get good traction. The full-length flex, coupled with the full 68mm underfoot make them remarkably stable and supportive in deep snow as well.

Sounds like the 200cm is performing a bit more like a "camber-an-a-half" ski like the E109 and Combat Nato. When I stand evenly on the 205cm E109 and 210cm Combat Nato, the wax pocket is completely squashed- making them much easier to flex/pressure in a turn, as well as better climbers than the more cambered and stiffer 210cm E99 and 210cm USGI. HOWEVER- that low-profile resistant second camber is still there on the E109/Combat Nato- it may not preserve a truly effective "wax pocket", but you can certainly feel it when you squeeze/pressure them in a downward kick and release- both of these skis offer way more effective K&G performance than a single-cambered ski like the Epoch. And neither the E109 or the Combat Nat have a completely smooth, round reverse flex- due to that stiff low profile second camber.

For distance-oriented BC skiing in hilly/steep terrain, the "camber-and-a-half" profile is my preference- decent XC performance (especially on fresh soft snow)- decent climbing performance- and I can still evenly pressure them and truly carve an evenly-pressured telemark turn.

I suppose a SHORT double-camber ski will perform more like a "camber-and-a-half" ski...But, truly double-cambered skis still have a higher camber and a stiffer flex underfoot...

I guess I always wonder what the point is of a short double-cambered ski...

But- many skiers love them- and they certainly offer resistance-energy and "pop" to turn transitions and to K&G...

For me, if I want Nordic ski short enough to be able to evenly pressure them, then I prefer a longer ski with less camber and a softer flex.

Would be very interesting for you to compare/contrast your 200cm USGI with an equivalent-length Combat Nato/E109.


Short skis are easier for people with short legs to wedge and turn.

Grampatele

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Re: What is camber?

Postby Grampatele » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:10 am

Heh....LJ I break all skis....Asnes too...I kinda like them so now only use them for easy trips or turns....Mostly they just sit there....Will keep reading about the skis you got but we ski the bush most if not all the time and downhill tests do not translate into anything but a faded memory when in the bush...TM

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connyro

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Re: What is camber?

Postby connyro » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:50 am

If you are continuously breaking skis, it means you aren't doing it right. Maybe find a better tool for the job.

Cannatonic

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Re: What is camber?

Postby Cannatonic » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:01 pm

it means you're skiing on 3 inches of base


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