thanks for all the fish

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connyro

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Re: thanks for all the fish

Postby connyro » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:23 pm

My 210s are just as LC described his 200/210: can't close camber with one hand but can barely with two. The tips seem softish compared to the stiff camber at least.

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lilcliffy

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Re: thanks for all the fish

Postby lilcliffy » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:34 pm

t-$ wrote:as far as skipping that hill yesterday, it's just too intense for me still. at 37 years old, i should still be "one of the younger guys" but i don't want to push it too hard. for sure i coulda taken a low angle thru the trees but i just wasnt feeling it. had it been an open slope, maybe...but the trees are pretty thick. maybe i'll be up to hit it in a few years...

If you really want to enjoy those forested slopes- I really think you are going to want a different ski- and perhaps a different boot (depending on the skis):

short
soft round flex
lots of sidecut

They will suck on the flats for any serious distance (you have your Country and USGI for that)- but if you want to safely enjoy steep forested slopes- you want a ski that you can ski a tight line with.

At the very least you need a ski that you can easily squash, pressure and bend into a turn.

The short length will give you a shorter turning radius and allow you to ski a tight line through the woods.

I can "get down" some pretty steep densely forested slopes on my 200+cm skis- IF THE SNOW IS IDEAL.

BUT- even when the snow is ideal I have to use a bunch of Nordic turning techniques- such as step/jump turns- if I wait for even my soft-flexing 205cm Eons to "come-around" in a dense steep forest, I HIT THE TREE.

The other problem with those USGI is that they are heavy- there are downhill things I can do with my light E99/E109/Eon/Combat Nato that I just cannot do with those USGIs- at least not consistently.

In my backyard backcountry- the best slopes are densely forested- though there are a few local steep fields that are fun to do open yo-yo laps on as well

I have 175cm XCD 10th Mtns and 175cm XCD Guides- mounted with 3-pin cable- that were my chosen skis for steep forested slopes. They are excellent in this context when the snow is fresh and soft- but they are both wanting on difficult snow.

My new 162cm Koms are hopefully their replacement- the 145cm Hok is also a good choice.

A short mid-width camber-and-a-half XCD ski would also work- and would be a better match to your Alaskas: Eon/Ingstad/Nansen/T-78/E-109...
The pursuit of XCD balance: cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry

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t-$

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Re: thanks for all the fish

Postby t-$ » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:26 pm

hey there,

at this point i most thoroughly enjoy the forested slopes when i am looking at them from the trail! skiing through the steep ones, not so much. i don't want to jack myself up. plus, and i know this to be true of other people, i am always drawn to the slow, quiet, traditional ways of doing many things. i like to shoot longbows and wood arrows. smoke meats and cook in the dutch oven. i like to ski to a distant destination through rolling terrain or over mountains. i think what draws me to telemark turning is that when i complete a few turns down a moderately sloping trail in the woods it feels like it is an "old" and natural way to drive a ski like the long and skinny xc ski. i must admit that i really have no desire to do the crazy stuff i see in the movies. i guess i am not a true "telemark skiier" in the sense that i don't have much of an inclination to the typical telemark setup and hitting steeps. i guess that's why i feel a realness in this thing called xcd. it's not what i know "telemarking" to be. i i guess i have always thought of what i like to do as like the little brother of telemark. but oh, in my head i'm ripping amazing turns all the way down the steepest and tightest runs!!

i know if i strapped on a sweet telemark kit i would have so much fun. and hopefully one day i do and i don't break anything. i think i will always be drawn to just doing trips tho. if i may regale you with a tale of one of my favorite "ski" trips...

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t-$

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Re: thanks for all the fish

Postby t-$ » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:38 pm

a couple years back the girl and the dogs and i took a trip to tolovana hot springs. the plan was to ski in, chill for couple of days, and ski out. basically from the parking area/th, you head down, then up, then down. like, the dh's are low grade, really long. couple days before we had gotten a thaw/frz cycle or wet rain, i can't recall exactly why the trail was basically ice the entire way but it was. the ski in turned into the most awesome sledding i have ever done in my life. bungeed the skis into the pulks, sat atop and down we went trying to use our feet to slow down a bit. i would be lying if i said i wasnt scared, cause i was scared shitless. thankfully no injuries even after i slammed into my dog who for some reason decided to stop cold in the middle of the trail. i had no way to stop and totally smashed him. he was a tough bugger though and shook it off.

getting over the mountain was a bit tricky but thankfully conditions were better on the north slope so we were able to make decent headway on skis going up. after meeting up randomly with a friend who happened to be fatbiking out there as well, we just decided to ride the sleds down the second hill too, which to me was scarier than the first.

the rest of the trip went great, and the hot springs were more than nice. but i love it when a ski trip turns into a ridiculously crazy fun time. anyway, thanks for letting me tell that little story...

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fisheater

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Re: thanks for all the fish

Postby fisheater » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:06 am

lilcliffy wrote:Hey Bob- what are the camber and flex like on your USGIs?
Stiff and double-cambered like t-$'s 200cm- or softer like t-$'s 210cm?

My 200&210cm have a soft snow flex to them- but they are definitely double-cambered- they are every bit as stiff as my E99s- impossible to close the camber with one hand- can barely do it with both hands.

What do you think the turning radius is like on yours?


Gareth,
My skis have soft (not mushy) tips and tails that blend into that double camber. I cannot close them with one hand, and it takes effort with two. I wish I had the opportunity to use them to break trail like you do. If I have as little as 6" of fresh, I am touring for turns. If I had that opportunity more often I would take the USGI's out, and work on my powder touch with them. I skied them quite poorly on frozen granular over ice last year at the resort, much to my son's amusement. I would like to work on pointing them downhill in powder, because I really enjoy them as a trail ski.
As for turning radius, I prefer medium radius turns. When I alpine skied I preferred detuned (all mountain) GS skis to slalom skis, and western moguls to eastern moguls (not that I couldn't ski eastern moguls). To answer your question, if I put the USGI on edge, the tips and tails flex nicely, but don't cave. It is torsionally rigid. I can comfortably carve turns a bit larger than slalom turns. I am sure Harris could rip slalom turns on my 200's. I hope that helps. I only own one pair of "modern" skis other the 112's, which is a 2000 model Vokll mid fat.

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t-$

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Re: thanks for all the fish

Postby t-$ » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:37 pm

so i checked those 210's yet again and yeah, they are floppy. like wet noodles. it will be interesting to see my brother in law learn to ski on them! i'm sure they will be great for the easy walking around we will do. it's interesting to me that they are so different, but it makes sense i guess, from everything i have read about them.

***northern lower michigan conditions report***

well, things are shaping up beautifully for the real start of season here. i had commitments for the last 2 days solid so haven't been able to get out since sunday. which was good and bad. on the plus side, we have gotten 10-12 inches of fresh, dry, crystally stuff over the last 18 hours. it's quite picturesque. the downside is that the track i intended to keep up was completely covered. oh well, it made for a great night of breaking trail in loose powder. i took the bc crowns out tonight only because i was too lazy to wax the usgi's and just wanted to get out as soon as i got home. it was a fine choice in the end. not too much sinkage and the downhills were smooth.

now that i am trying to learn the turn in earnest, it seemed tonight that in deeper snow the back ski doesn't come around naturally like it does on packed. i found that i had to really move the ski with intention. in the shallower snow it just kind of swings into place on its own when i settle down over my front foot.

anybody got any tips on how to shift weight or something to make the back leg behave in deep snow?? i would be ever so grateful for any input. thanks all...hope you are all getting the fresh!
image (40).jpg

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fisheater

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Re: thanks for all the fish

Postby fisheater » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:54 pm

Well T-$ to a fellow archer whom prefers a stick a string and wood arrows, the snow whispers, "It's all about the back foot". I was a ski instructor years ago. The ski school had some super top shelf people, not what you would think you would find on a bump 35 miles north of Detroit. I had the opportunity to clinic with these guys, some of it sunk in. When I taught beginner alpine lessons, teaching position or posture was something I really tried to convey. I wanted them to bend at their knees so that their shins were pressuring the tongue of their boots, but most importantly I wanted to get their hips over their ankles. I would emphasize this in a standing position for a few minutes throughout all the beginner lessons (my specialty). Everything starts from a solid position.
For telemark it is the same, except perhaps you can imagine you are pressing your shins up against the tongue of an alpine boot, and when you are ready to turn your back ankle is under your hip. Your weight should be about 50/50 between feet. Practice the feeling in a stationary position. When you really know that posture and how it feels, your body will learn how to get their when you are moving.
Enjoy, we're all still kids sliding on snow!
Last edited by fisheater on Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fisheater

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Re: thanks for all the fish

Postby fisheater » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:08 pm

And hands on you bicycle handlebars. When your hands go down to your sides, your butt goes back behind you. You can't do anything if you butt gets behind you. You can't steer from the backseat.

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lilcliffy

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Re: thanks for all the fish

Postby lilcliffy » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:17 pm

t-$ wrote:now that i am trying to learn the turn in earnest, it seemed tonight that in deeper snow the back ski doesn't come around naturally like it does on packed. i found that i had to really move the ski with intention. in the shallower snow it just kind of swings into place on its own when i settle down over my front foot.

anybody got any tips on how to shift weight or something to make the back leg behave in deep snow?? i would be ever so grateful for any input. thanks all...hope you are all getting the fresh!


Perhaps I can help you- though I am no expert on the telemark turn!

I wish to draw your attention to this first:
in the shallower snow it just kind of swings into place on its own when i settle down over my front foot.

This- along with your difficulty with your inside/trailing foot/leg- suggests to me that you have most all of your weight on your front leg/foot. Technically speaking, a "true" telemark should have your weight evenly spread between both legs/feet- many telemarkers even at least speak of putting even more weight on the rear leg when turning in deep snow. I have never been sure whether this is actually true, or just an intent- but, myself I definitely try to put as much weight on to the rear leg as possible when making a "true" telemark turn. I personally doubt that I ever achieve more than a 50/50 weight distribution- especially on XC gear (which I will come back to in a moment).

(Traditionally- powder skiing is all about even distribution of weight. I know that many an on-piste and/or dense moisture-rich downhill skier has been met with real shock the first time they tried to ski in truly deep, fluffy, dry snow. Most Alpine skiers, in particular, make most of their turns with most of their weight on the outside/downhill ski- this doesn't work effectively in powder with traditional skis. I have not skied ultra-fat powder skis of the new millennium- perhaps they are fat enough that one can ride one ski and still get enough flotation-stability in the true POW?)

Anyway- perhaps I digress :oops: :roll:

Your description suggests to me that you may be actually making striding turns- as opposed to "true" telemark turns.

This would not surprise me for two reasons:
1) You are skiing down gentle slopes.
2) You are in XC gear (skis and boots).

I make striding turns with my BC-XC gear more often than not- especially if I want to ski a tight line. My "true" telemarks on my BC-XC gear are usually restricted to situations where I can make wide open turns.

With a striding turn one needs to shift weight from one ski to the other thru the turn- just like a diagonal stride. You may even have to pick your skis up and place them in position in deep snow.

Don't know if I am helping you at all...

Do you have this book?


It is full of excellent tips- especially for the visual learner- like me!

In conclusion- sounds to me like your rear leg may be simply skidding along behind your fully-weighted outside/lead leg on dense snow.

What is your stance like?
Compact?
Elongated?
Think about your rear foot-
is the heel lift low, with a lot of pressure going down into the ball of your foot?
or, is your heel high, with your rear foot up on its toes?
The pursuit of XCD balance: cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry

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t-$

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Re: thanks for all the fish

Postby t-$ » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:34 am

hey guys, thanks for the input. any advice really does help me!

i think you are both right that i have more weight on my leading foot thru the turn. i have been trying to be conscious about weighting both but i know my fore-aft stability is usually somewhat shaky at the beginning of each turn and then i try to settle down once i feel the skis start to respond. on shallow snow it has happened almost immediately cause the skis respond almost immediately, but last night the weight transfer seemed to be a problem. i guess i am not sure how i could get the lead ski to commence the turn when not fully weighted? for instance, on many bad turns when i feel like i am falling backwards the front ski just wants to go straight downhill, the edge does not engage, and the tip doesn't come around like its spose to and then i fall. perhaps i am developing a bad habit of overwheighting the lead just to get the turn started? is this what you are referring to as a striding turn?

i don't have that book, but it might be time to do some actual serious reading on this telemark thing. now that i am starting to get the feel for it i am noticing a lot of things that i didn't notice before and am wanting to get better, so maybe some academics are in order.

as far as my stance and stuff, i only have videos and people i have seen to compare to. i would say that i have an upright stance, and i try to keep it closed. i am also conscious to keep my BOF's in the driver seat, and only take weight off them in the lead changes. maybe that's a big part of my problem right there? my trailing ski is usually about toe to heel of my lead and not too much heel lift. it seems that when i get more aggressive than this my stability goes out the window and the skis then have a mind of their own. and occasionally the lead ski will run away a bit and i have to drive more with the heel to get it back under control but this hasn't been too much of an issue.

so the big take-aways from your guys' posts is that i need to keep a better weight dist. between skis (at 50/50), and maybe need to even put more back in deep snow. also keepin the hands up is something i have been noticing and trying to be diligent about. it's gonna be hard to put wheight back on the beginning of the turns, this could be fun!! maybe i am trying to force a too-tight turn on the these skis and i just need to be more patient with them and take longer ones? but that's no fun, and most of the time i don't have near enough room to let the skis determine the turn radius. on long-low grade trails its not an issue cause obviously you just change the lead when you get to the other side of the trail, but in the woods its gonna be trickier i see. oh the joys of backcountry skiing!!!!!

thanks for the help, and any and all advice is always welcome. if you think of anything else, by all means tell me what i'm doing wrong!! hope you all have a great day, and i'll let you know how things go when i mess with this stuff tonight...


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