riser plates in the backcountry?

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lilcliffy

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Re: riser plates in the backcountry?

Postby lilcliffy » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:45 pm

I am not sure what to expect yet.

The Kom is the widest Nordic ski I have ever owned. It is even wider than the BC skis I toured with in the western mountains back in the 1990s!

I "expect" that I will often not need or want the cables- hence the interest in the 3-pin cable/hardwire...

BUT- even with my 3-pin cables- I have often wanted the cable on my 10th Mtns/Guides when the snow and or terrain has required that extra power and stability to safely enjoy.

I am definitely at least putting the 3-pin cable on the Kom- even if I only rarely use the cable- I know I will be happy I had it- this is at least my experience.

The attraction of the hardwire allows me to take it even further if I need/want.

Again- I may not need/want the hardwire most of the time- BUT- when I want it?

I got the Kom to ski steep tight lines through the Northwoods- the Kom is fat enough to float me in anything around here- but I would like to be able to control that ski even when the snow is not ideal.
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Grampatele

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Re: riser plates in the backcountry?

Postby Grampatele » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:07 pm

The thing about pins is the total or almost total freedom....Putting anything on reduces the freedom....Say again if your skiing at the Downhill areas cables and the rest of Tele everything is different from skiing the bush....there leastest lesstist ist the bestiss...Oh yeah...Teleman

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lowangle al

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Re: riser plates in the backcountry?

Postby lowangle al » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:36 am

Johnny wrote:
lowangle al wrote:An active binding will get the rear ski to turn even if not properly weighted through tip pressure.

True... That's what I meant by training wheels... And exactly what Harris meant by "they help save gas on groomers and or powder"... Simply put, cables do the job for you... 8-)

Human power and technique, not cables...! :lol:


Johnny, take the flexors out of your nnn bc bindings and see if they ski the same. I don't need cables, I prefer them for a better feel and smoother turns

Grampatele wrote:The thing about pins is the total or almost total freedom....Putting anything on reduces the freedom....Say again if your skiing at the Downhill areas cables and the rest of Tele everything is different from skiing the bush....there leastest lesstist ist the bestiss...Oh yeah...Teleman


GT, the difference between the feel of skiing withor withouta cable is pretty subtle and you may not even feel the benefits on a double camber ski.

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Johnny

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Re: riser plates in the backcountry?

Postby Johnny » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:45 am

Woodserson wrote:I'm an ol' weak muscled girly-man wuss and therefor I enjoy active bindings and cables.

Same situation here... Except for the last part... ;)

I'd rather take my time and feel everything... I ski super fast on plastics... But when it comes to leathers and XCD, I'm slow, super slow... And I really like it that way... That's the beauty of XCD, slow is fun, no matter where you ski... I like that slow, smooth, dancy feeling on XCD... I don't like having something pulling me... Cables and plastics are too agressive for my XCD DNA... Too steep? Uncertain snow? Just take your time and go slower... ;)

Image


lowangle al wrote:Johnny, take the flexors out of your nnn bc bindings and see if they ski the same.

You just have to go even slower, that's all... 8-)

Seriously, yeah, the Koms are too heavy for leathers... You will need plastics to really enjoy them... But risers? Nah... Cables? Nah... ;)
/...\ Peace, Love, Telemark and Tofu /...\
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fisheater

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Re: riser plates in the backcountry?

Postby fisheater » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:42 am

I also do not have much experience with fat waisted modern skis. My only experience is with one of the early powder skis an Atomic Powde Cruise, which on a side note I still own, and often think about mounting. I was in Utah, there were three of us, we skied hard, if you lagged you were left for the wolves. The day previous we had spent the entire day skiing tight north facing steep tree chutes at Solitude. If somebody biffed, and left gear 50 yards up the mountain the guy above would naturally bring it down, ask if the biffer was okay, and then it was see you at the bottom, maybe! So it was in that competitive environment that I decided to cheat the next day at Alta and break out the Powder Cruise, much to the protests of training wheels, girl skis, and cheater. My only excuse is we have 5 more days, and if you girls can't keep up get some rentals. Alta was hard. Those skis were brutal on hard snow. Without a riser I had no leverage. My partners of course understood my plight. They agreed amongst themselves to ski to the lift farthest from the lot we were parked in, and waited until they almost bonked at 1:30 to break for lunch. They took great amusement in my pain turning those fat boards on hard snow. While I miss the vigor of my thirties, now I guess I am glad my same friends wouldn't take pleasure in my pain like that.
If you're still with me, the point of the story is if your foot is wider than your ski the ski is easy to put on edge. If the ski is almost as wide or wider you need a riser. It really is just simple leverage.
Two more points, refrozen spring snow can be hard in the morning. It is also fast and fun. I like being in the woods early. The second point is just a practical point. When touring for turns, your spend a lot of time touring. You do not want to be hindered by a cable. If your downhills are short, say less than 1000 vertical feet (all mine are less than 300) do you want to take your ski off to put a cable on??? I would not take a ski off to attach a cable. However, if you mount the heel piece on a Hardwire so that the bail has good tension at the same adjustment point as it would on your boot, you can ski on three pins only. When you get to the downhill, clip off the heel piece and onto the boot. On my hardwires the tension at the heel piece is a bit loose at boot setting. Sometimes it pops off, but it has not been enough for me to remount the heel piece.
The convenience of having a cable attached to the heel piece and being able to attach the cable to my boot quickly has my in a quandary when I consider purchasing the latest mid-width, rockered, easy skin backcountry ski. It is a super cool ski, but I am waiting more reviews. While I am fairly confident I could turn it without cables, I would mount it 3 pin cable. I doubt I would use the cables much, because I can't see stopping and taking off a ski to put a cable on to turn for 200 feet of vert. The Mid-width would be made less stable by adding a riser due to being less than 70 mm underfoot. In this case a riser would overleverage a skinny ski, where as a riser provides leverage, and foot comfort on a wider ski.
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lilcliffy

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Re: riser plates in the backcountry?

Postby lilcliffy » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:26 pm

Good stuff Bob- thank you!

I agree- the physics is pretty clear- riser plate increases leverage.

Clipping the hardwire to the heel plate when not in use is a great setup when touring for turns and wanting the 3-pin XC performance- avoiding the free-pivot. (If I had more vertical in my local skiing- and was mostly climbing- I would be looking at the switchback.)

As far as the 3-pin cable- when touring for turns- can you not just unhook the cable when you are XC skiing and climbing? That is what I do. If I have to cover some serious distance- without serious downhills- I will take the cable off. But- if I am doing laps with the 3pc I unhook the cable when XC skiing and climbing.

As far as the 3-pin-cable on a midiwth XCD ski- it is still the binding I too would get if I was going to put NN on a ski like the Ingstad/E109/Eon. Probably more for the backcountry insurance than for the need for downhill power. NNNBC has completely replaced NN for me on skis less than 70mm, so the cable is out!

I am almost ready to pull the trigger on the hardwire for the Kom...I realize that it may be more than I need, much of the time- but, I feel that it will widen the spectrum of when I can ski the Kom- AND, still have 3-pin XC!!!

The hardwire is more $$ than I was budgeting for this season however...I was hoping and counting my pennies to buy a ski in late winter- but, the price on that lightly used Kom was too hard to resist.

If I buy the hardwire, I may have to wait for a bit to be able to buy one...

Oh well, my 15-year old son spent 2 years saving for a new gaming PC- he finally built it last weekend with some early Xmas cash from Dad- I told him it was good for his soul to have to save his money for something he really wants- guess it is good for mine as well!
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lowangle al

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Re: riser plates in the backcountry?

Postby lowangle al » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:50 pm

If you ever find yourself on a hard windblown slope I think you will have an easier time getting your skis on edgeb than with a cable.

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lilcliffy

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Re: riser plates in the backcountry?

Postby lilcliffy » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:32 pm

lowangle al wrote:If you ever find yourself on a hard windblown slope I think you will have an easier time getting your skis on edgeb than with a cable.

Yes, I do find myself in that situation- and I agree on the cable.
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