Boot-Binding Compatibility

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JGF

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Boot-Binding Compatibility

Postby JGF » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:37 pm

Hi - Sorry if this has been discussed, but I didn't see it...

I've been skiing for a few years on BC70's with normal (not BC) NNN bindings..., and I want to get a pair of wider skis, to do more challenging trails than i can do with my current gear.

I live in SW Connecticut, and ski places like Ward Pound Reservation over in NY, Devil's Den in Wilton CT.., and so on. My aim is to ski places like the Catamount Trail in VT - not necessarily the most difficult sections.., but certainly anything that might be considered "intermediate".

A year or two ago, I saw as pair of soft 3-pin boots in my size at a clearance price so i bought them. They are Alpina Explorer 75 - they have a stiff plastic support that wraps around above the ankle.

What I was thinking of buying, was something like a Fischer S-Bound 98.., with Hardwire bindings.

But.., I was advised by a shop that Hardwire bindings won't work well with soft boots - I was told that basically, the cartridges exert too much force and will deform a soft boot, maybe even causing the wire to come off the heel. It was recommended that I consider one of the 3-pin cable bindings instead.

I called Voile just to check what they thought.., and they didn't think the heel would come off, but mentioned a different possible problem; with some soft boots there is and issue with the duck-bill piece not fitting properly in the binding - i didn't totally understand what he was saying...

Anyway.., I guess what I want to know is does everyone here agree that the Hardwire won't work?

Assuming that is true.., is there really any reason to get one of the Voile cable bindings - is there enough of a downhill control increase over just the plain 3-pin?

I guess another possibility is to just buy new hard plastic boots, and get the Hardwires, but right now i am thinking that will just take time, finding my size, and so on.., and i just want to get out there...

Thanks.

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Re: Boot-Binding Compatibility

Postby phoenix » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:21 pm

What the folks at Voile were referring to is the fact that not all 3 pin boots have the same sole thickness, which can be true of boots like the Alpina Explorers you're describing. I've found that my Alpina Alaska's have a thinner sole than my plastic tele's, for example. If they're a couple of mm's thinner than a standard blastic boot there's play in the toe piece, which ain't good. Since the toepiece is fixed on a cable binding, there's no way of compensating.

On a 3 pin, there's adjustment for thickness, and so usually no issue. As far as whether the cables give a big advantage over 3 pins - I'll say no, they most often don't, on the leather or hybrid 3 pins. Different story on plastic boots; they often help with the flex and pressuring.

In your case, an option would be the Voile 3 pin with cable... adjustable toe height and a cable if you want it. My current preference is a good 3 pin on a backcountry ofr light tele set-up, with good leathers or a soft (T-4, or Excursion) plastic boot. Just tried my TeleBulldog "Spike" 3pins the other day with Excursions and Voile Objectives, and was very impressed with the bindings (the whole set up is super sweet, actually). The Spike' don't have the common toe lever, but do have a built in range, if not as much as say the Voile 3 pins.

Hope some of this helps; feel free to ask further.

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Johnny

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Re: Boot-Binding Compatibility

Postby Johnny » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:04 pm

Phoenix is right... Check out this thread for more info about the duckbill issue... Check out the first link in the article too for pictures... The problem is only with newer 3pc bindings... If you can find an old one, plain black, you won't have any problem...

Any kind of cables with leathers will deform your shoes... And your feet too... That's one of the main reason I stopped using cables... BUT cables are very useful for beginners...

The sidethrow heel of the 3pc is much more adapted for leathers than the small, narrow heel lever of the HWs... The heel might come off with leathers and HWs, but very, very rarely with the 3pc sidethrow which really locks your heel to the cable...

JGF wrote:is there really any reason to get one of the Voile cable bindings - is there enough of a downhill control increase over just the plain 3-pin?

The answer is YES, there is enough control...! But it requires a few years of practice... ;)
(Not 2018 yet...)

You probably won't need the cables for most of the Catamount trail stuff... But once on the trail, I'm pretty sure you will want to do a few laps off-trail too... Where if this is your first years on pins, cables sure will be very useful...! A must I would say... 8-)
/...\ Peace, Love, Telemark and Tofu /...\
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Re: Boot-Binding Compatibility

Postby JGF » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:46 pm

It sounded more to me like the guy from Voile was talking about a problem with the _sides_ of the duck bill.., and/or the sides of the front part of the boot not fitting into the metal piece.., and rubbing..., but maybe i got it wrong...,

anyway, it sounds like you agree that the hardwire is not a good binding for the boot that i have, and that the 3-pin cable provides enough of an advantage over a plain 3-pin, that it's worth getting.

I guess I was thinking more of getting the Voile Traverse - cable binding with a riser.., rather than the regular 3-pin cable .., mostly because it has the same 4-hole pattern as the Hardwire, so that I could swap bindings in the future without drilling new holes, if I got hard boots at some time.

does that make any sense?

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Re: Boot-Binding Compatibility

Postby phoenix » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:21 pm

Sure, the riser and 4 hole pattern would be a good way to go. I won't go into the interpretation of the fit issue with boots - it would be lengthy - enough to know the potential problems already mentioned.

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Re: Boot-Binding Compatibility

Postby D'hostie » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:50 pm

I say the riser is largely unnecessary, but it won't hurt anything. It's just more money up front.

The regular 3 pin cable will be more than adequate for those boots, in fact, I bet you hardly use the cables, and see as how the mounting patterns are different, if you want to change bindings, you can plug the 3, 3 pin holes and add the riser, which will come with hardwire bindings or switchbacks, or whatever you decide to go with next. My bet is you'll never remove those bindings and wind up buying another pair of skis...

And really, even if you do get some plastic, there is no reason you need that riser. They'll work just fine with or without the cable too.

The only skis I have risers on are ones that have been drilled so many times it's hard to get another pattern in there.

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Re: Boot-Binding Compatibility

Postby Johnny » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:05 pm

JGF wrote:It sounded more to me like the guy from Voile was talking about a problem with the _sides_ of the duck bill.., and/or the sides of the front part of the boot not fitting into the metal piece.., and rubbing..., but maybe i got it wrong...,


Yep, the sides of the duckbills are also problematic on the latest SKU:301 and 202HD... They are rubbing on certain softer Vibram soles, which was not the case with the older Voile SKU:201's:

Image
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JGF

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Re: Boot-Binding Compatibility

Postby JGF » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:12 pm

Johnny wrote:
JGF wrote:It sounded more to me like the guy from Voile was talking about a problem with the _sides_ of the duck bill.., and/or the sides of the front part of the boot not fitting into the metal piece.., and rubbing..., but maybe i got it wrong...,


Yep, the sides of the duckbills are also problematic on the latest SKU:301 and 202HD... They are rubbing on certain softer Vibram soles, which was not the case with the older Voile SKU:201's:



So I got the skis and hardwire bindings.., nothing is mounted yet...

with my boots i can close the 3-pin with a secure connection, so I don't have the problem with the thickness of the duckbill that was mentioned above.

However, I _do_ seem to have an issue with the sides of the boot rubbing on the binding - as shown in the photo linked by Johnny. It's not quite as bad as in that photo but there will be rubbing withe every step.

I am guessing that means i shouldn't use the binding - or i should get new boots.

But If I were to try and use the Cable Traverse binding - is that going to be different? It looks like the Traverse toe piece is the same as the regular cable binding toe pieces - so if my boot will work with the regular cable binding (will it?) then it will work with the traverse - right?

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Re: Boot-Binding Compatibility

Postby phoenix » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:19 pm

I'm thinking don't worry about the cables, and get a solid 3 pin. Riser optional. Given my experience so far with the Burnt Mountain Designs "Spike" 3 pins, that'd be my choice. I woul NOT recommend the Rotte Super Tele's for you at this point.
If going to a different binding is not a reasonable option for you at this point, rasping the sides of the duckbill's is an option - but be aware that if you then use the boots with different bindings, the boots may never fit right.

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Re: Boot-Binding Compatibility

Postby JGF » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:38 pm

another thing.., a little OT, but... - the S-Bounds came with no binding marks at all - there is nothing indicating a 3-pin line or anything.

the top sheet is completely black with no marks whatsoever in the area where the binding would go.

is that normal?


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