the magic and power of grip wax

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Desmo

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Re: the magic and power of grip wax

Postby Desmo » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:15 pm

Yeah, I find it best to set the skis outside after waxing while I get dressed.

Took my new USGI skis out for a quick run last night. Picked blue v40, when I should have gone with 45. But I added a bit more to front of the pocket, and that helped a bit.

I'll be glide waxing them, and my wife's new madshus cadence 90se skis this weekend too.

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fisheater

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Re: the magic and power of grip wax

Postby fisheater » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:49 am

Lilcliffy had discussed kick wax on a ski review thread I had started. Before I get on track with the wax discussion, I will answer a ski question he asked. Yes,the FT 62 does have a track groove. On to the wax discussion.
I have not tried hot waxing kick wax as of yet. I am assuming you would still crayon the wax on, and cork to get even coverage, then iron, is that correct? Kick wax is pretty affordable crayoned on, once you start ironing does consumption increase significantly? For regular trail skiing on (of course) natural snow I keep a pretty good wax base utilizing base binder. My trail skiing season was not as long as I would have liked, as I took time off for lift served, and had some family things to do as well. I did have a stretch where I did about 80 miles, only touching up wax. I could have kept it going, except it got warm and I had to use 3 or 4 coats of red/silver heel to tip. That stuff is like glue, it was full of debris after a ten mile kick, and needed to be stripped. I am happy with base binder in my usually warmer temperatures, I think it works great with red and blue, perhaps it makes green a little sticky.
I like polar white, it corks on very nicely. I am not sure if it would get sticky over base binder. I would like to hear more about ironing in polar, in terms of how much wax is used, how long it lasts, and how it feels on the skis.

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Re: the magic and power of grip wax

Postby Cannatonic » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:56 pm

I crayon the grip wax on the base and then use the iron to spread it smooth & flat. It doesn't take much wax this way. No real need for corking afterwards.

I would only use the iron to cover the entire base with polar or green (using it as glide wax) or to iron-in base binder to the kick section. Typically I"ll iron-in the base binder to the kick section and then crayon the grip wax on and cork it smooth.

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lilcliffy

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Re: the magic and power of grip wax

Postby lilcliffy » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:08 pm

In order try and keep myself straight on describing this:

When I say "kick wax" I am speaking of grip wax applied to the kick zone of the ski- intended to provide grip on the snow temperature of the day.

When I speak of "grip wax" I am speaking of grip wax in general- applied anywhere on the base of the ski.

fisheater wrote:I have not tried hot waxing kick wax as of yet. I am assuming you would still crayon the wax on, and cork to get even coverage, then iron, is that correct? Kick wax is pretty affordable crayoned on, once you start ironing does consumption increase significantly?

For my base layer of hard grip wax- I crayon on the grip wax, then melt it and iron it in evenly into the base. Then- unlike glide wax- I do not scrape it down- once it cools, I cork and buff it smooth and shiny. At this point, I have only used Swix Polar as a base grip wax melted into the entire base. Consumption has not increased- in fact- perhaps because I am not an obsessive waxer- ironing in the base layer has actually reduced my consumption over all for multiple reasons:
1) I can be as sloppy as I want crayoning it on- when I heat and melt it in I can spread it evenly.
2) When I apply kick wax on top of the base grip wax, I find it much easier to crayon and cork it evenly- with a base layer that has been evenly ironed in (same results with ironed in base binder BTW.)

For regular trail skiing on (of course) natural snow I keep a pretty good wax base utilizing base binder. My trail skiing season was not as long as I would have liked, as I took time off for lift served, and had some family things to do as well. I did have a stretch where I did about 80 miles, only touching up wax. I could have kept it going, except it got warm and I had to use 3 or 4 coats of red/silver heel to tip. That stuff is like glue, it was full of debris after a ten mile kick, and needed to be stripped.

Have you tried your Skin-Locks yet? We have started to get some ice/rain/freezing rain events plus crazy warm spells that would have required very soft kick wax and/or klister. I try to avoid soft wax and/or klister until true spring skiing has arrived- exactly because I want to avoid having to strip the bases. Kicker skins have really saved me a butt-load of time and fussing with these interim warm/wet/icy/refrozen spells...In fact I am so impressed with the kicker skins- especially Asnes'- that it seriously challenging some of my touring convictions...

I am happy with base binder in my usually warmer temperatures, I think it works great with red and blue, perhaps it makes green a little sticky.
I like polar white, it corks on very nicely. I am not sure if it would get sticky over base binder. I would like to hear more about ironing in polar, in terms of how much wax is used, how long it lasts, and how it feels on the skis.

I am most impressed with base binder in the kick zone of a truly double-cambered ski. However, it makes sense to me that it would make a significant difference under a soft grip wax. Where I struggle to find the benefit is compared to ironing in a hard grip wax as a replacement for base binder. I must admit that I have yeat to prove to myself that ironed in base binder is any better of a base layer than ironed in Polar- but, Polar definitely offers more effective grip and especially glide than binder..Base binder is only good as a base layer with grip wax/kick wax on top. What I am trying to say is that I am finding that a hard grip wax can act as both a base binder and a base grip-glide wax for the entire base. I am struggling to see the measurable benefit of base binder over a hard grip wax...

I am thrilled with ironing in Polar as a base layer to the entire base. I am getting excellent wax retention overall; exceptional bond with the kick wax du jour; excellent glide; and additional grip in all snow temperatures (too hard a grip wax doesn't offer "optimum" grip on too warm a snow, but it still does offer grip- as well as decent glide...)

Where I am uncertain is on very abrasive, icy refrozen snow. To be honest, nothing I have tried lasts more than a few hours on very abrasive snow. When it comes to very abrasive snow- I am not convinced that ironed in base binder is any more effective than ironed in Polar/Green (though as I said above- I do believe it makes a difference in the kick zone of a double-cambered ski.)
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lilcliffy

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Re: the magic and power of grip wax

Postby lilcliffy » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:22 pm

So- I have a number of Nordic touring skis waxed up at the moment:

1) 210cm Asnes Combat Nato: Swix Polar ironed and buffed into the entire base- kick wax on top (in the kick zone).

2) 205cm Madshus Eon Wax: Swix Polar ironed and buffed into the entire base- kick wax on top (in the kick zone).

3) 210cm Fischer E-99 Tour: Swix Polar ironed and buffed into the entire base- kick wax on top (in the kick zone).

4) 205cm Fischer E-109 Tour: Swix Polar ironed and buffed into the base from the heel of the kick zone forward to the tip- hard glide wax ironed in from the kick zone out on to the tail.

I must admit that I cannot find any noticeable increase in glide, with the glide wax on the tail of the E-109...

It has been a few weeks since the snow temperature has dropped to the point that Polar actually works as a kick wax. I would think that at that cold temperature, the Polar would be too grippy on the entire base and the ski with the glide wax on the tail would outperform the ski with Polar on the entire base...

In snow temperatures that are too warm for Polar to offer optimum kick-zone grip, I find that Polar offers excellent touring glide plus adds additional grip to the kick wax of the day.

In fact, I am finding that the extra grip offered by the base of Polar allows me to be on a full color-colder kick wax than I would have used in the past when I have had glide wax ironed into the glide zones.

For example, with Polar ironed into the entire base, I can use Swix Green as a kick wax on snow temperatures that I would have needed Blue in the past...

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lowangle al

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Re: the magic and power of grip wax

Postby lowangle al » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:26 pm

If my kick wax lasted 3 hours on abrasive snow I'd be happy with that and just reapply as needed.

I had a fantastic day skiing my kick waxed powder boards on about 8 inches of fresh. Great kick and glide today, the vector bc or any other fishscaled ski could never compare.

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Re: the magic and power of grip wax

Postby Cannatonic » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:56 am

>>When it comes to very abrasive snow- I am not convinced that ironed in base binder is any more effective than ironed in Polar/Green (though as I said above- I do believe it makes a difference in the kick zone of a double-cambered ski.)

same here, on frozen granular the wax and the base binder are both gone within minutes. I'd definitely prefer to use polar or green over the entire base, it would save the step of taping off the kick zone for the base binder and then the glide wax. Maybe base binder comes into play more when you're racing. of course now that I bought the container I feel like I have to use it :lol:

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lowangle al

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Re: the magic and power of grip wax

Postby lowangle al » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:23 am

I bought a can of base binder years but never really saw the benefits.

I felt the magic of grip wax yesterday when I caught and passed a couple skiing on Eons and I was on Voile Insanes(great ski) and T4s.

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Re: the magic and power of grip wax

Postby phoenix » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:04 am

"Kick waxing is pretty simple, the waxes are labeled for a certain temperature range and you can usually go by that. Sometimes the snow is colder than the air temp and you get fooled, so always start with the hardest(coldest) wax that you think might work. If you get a kick but it's not good enough you probably need more of the same wax. If you get no kick at all try the next softest wax you have. You can put a soft wax on top of a harder wax but not the other way. Sometimes you need to ski a couple hundred yards before the wax reaches it's full potential.

If you find you have plenty of kick but crappy glide you may need to scrape some wax off from the ends of the wax pocket and or cork it really well. You can change how a wax works by how much you cork it. The harder you cork it the harder it will get and glide better in colder snow, but too much and you can loose your grip."

Well said. Waxing really doesn't have to be complicated, for recreational skiing at least.

For what it's worth, I've never used base binder, nor a spray wax, in the 40+ years I've been waxing. Polar as a base has been a standard for many years.

Finally, a tip or two for klister removal:
First and easiest is, if you have the opportunity to leave them out on a very cold night after use, they scrape a lot easier.
Next, and rarely used: After scraping the initial stuff off, and down to some thinner residue, sprinkle the dases with talum powder (baby powder works). Not magic, but it does make the scraping easier.

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Re: the magic and power of grip wax

Postby Cannatonic » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:36 pm

Good to know, another vote for polar wax on the whole base.

Swix makes good videos on waxing - for klister removal they lay paper over the bases, then run the iron over the paper to warm things up, then they scrape the paper & melting klister up at the same time. Looks cool, of course I won't be trying it anytime soon :?


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