Chord Center mounting- does it make any sense?

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lilcliffy

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Chord Center mounting- does it make any sense?

Postby lilcliffy » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:59 pm

phoenix wrote:OK, about that chord center being an arbitrary measuement and such...

Admittedly, I am prone toward leaning toward old ways, to a degree. Following this post, I'm reading a lot of techie angst about the mounting points, who suggests what, and etc. Regarding the Asnes' in question - maybe the fact that they've been around for many decades, said mount 'em on the balance point, and re-asserted that might hold some validity?

Do you think that "new school" techniques might be easier to achieve by moving the mounting point forward to get quicker initiation... and what happens to the tails, and finish of the turn when doing so?

Might there be a reason why in the K2 catalog, circa 2009, there was a thorough explanation of why they recommend chord center mounts?

True enough, rocker and other newewst and best modifications affect the question, howeveris a long standing and time tested option a dinosaur? Apparently Asnes doesn't think so, in all cases. It ain't arbitrary, and is not necessarily the best for every ski, but is by no means arbitrary for the manufacturer's who know the intricacies of their craft.

Case in point: I picked up some Objective's end of last season. Went thru all sorts of inquiries, here and elsewhere, to choose a mounting point. Spoke to the folks at Voile, and got their measurement. Put 'em on the bench and measured multiple times... turns out Voile's suggested point, chord center, and BOF/CRS were all within a half centimeter of each other. I have not yet bothered to match boot center of anything. They ski beautifully, for me.

Now I assure you I'm not bustin' on anybody's opinion here. Nor one's technique. Just sayin' sometimes, oftentimes, new and different isn't always better... or even as new and different as it may appear. I cm. fore or aft of whatever shouldn't be an issue for a skier; you'dadjust your technique, if needed, ever so slightly to accomodate.

Long rant, I know. more simply put... it ain't such a big deal sometimes.

peace


Phoenix- I chose to respond to this in a new thread.

My limited experience- in the past I have mounted all of my downhill-oriented backcountry Nordic touring/Telemark skis on Chord Center (CC). WHY? I don't really know why- I was told to do it. With respect to traditional Nordic skis, that did not have extreme sidecut, and also had raised tips- CC moved the mounting point forward of the XC-oriented Balance Point (BP), and was told and convinced that this improved turn initiation (BTW- I have never been thrilled with my CC mounts when downhill skiing in deep powder snow...)

SO!!! What do you think- does Chord Center make any frackin' sense? Did it in the past and why? Does it now, when Nordic skis have low-profile tips, and more and more BC Nordic touring skis (and almost all downhill skis) have tip rocker?
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Re: Chord Center mounting- does it make any sense?

Postby phoenix » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:49 pm

"My limited experience- in the past I have mounted all of my downhill-oriented backcountry Nordic touring/Telemark skis on Chord Center (CC). WHY? I don't really know why- I was told to do it."

Me too, for the most part. I've also mounted many on the balance point, if a more Xc than XCD or tele ski. Reason being it was the ski manufacture;s recommendation, base on their extensive R7D, relative to the design of the ski. It put you at the sweet spot for that particular ski, and used to be the norm.

"I have never been thrilled with my CC mounts when downhill skiing in deep powder snow...)"

This is, I believe, due to the fact that skiing powder necessitates weighting the skis further back; it's largely a technique thing. Mounting the skis farther forward would make this worse. Mounting them further back then CCwould actually make it seem easier, but is VERY rarely done, being powder specific for the most part.

"SO!!! What do you think- does Chord Center make any frackin' sense? Did it in the past and why? Does it now, when Nordic skis have low-profile tips, and more and more BC Nordic touring skis (and almost all downhill skis) have tip rocker?"

I firmly believe CC makes all sorts of sense... provided the ski is of a more or less "traditional" design. New wave skis alter all that, and I am not suggesting that CC works equally well for skis with pronounced rocker, or a significant increase in tip width/waist width ratio. In these cases, I like to talk with a tech rep at the company and ask what their recommendation is for skiing the particular board tele.
I used my example of mounting the Objectives to represent the fact that, if the design dictates, CC may still be an optimal choice. And I'll add that along with CC, BOF/CRS, and manufacturer's point of measurement all being nearly identical, when I mounted 'em with 3 pin Spikes... the skis also balanced perfectly on the same pin line. Works for that ski.

I do have reservations about mounting boot center mark for freeheel, if the boot center line was developed for alpine application... different situation entirely. Hope that helps clarify some; feel free to ask away if it doesn't make sense.

(P.S.- I am very open to learning how to reply to a post with the highlited quote thing. I just can't figure that one out!)

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Re: Chord Center mounting- does it make any sense?

Postby t-$ » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:39 am

hey all,

so i'm nervously procrasticating on mounting the new pair of eon's because of all this talk of mounting points. i'm definitely confused and don't want to make a bunch of holes in 'em.

can one of you put the fine points down for me? i've seen the diagrams so i understand the basics of cc mounting, but what about the characteristics compared (edit: compared to balance point mounting) point-to-point?

1) turning ability
2) k&g performance
2a) trackability
3) fatigue

gonna be mounting them with bc magnums and they will be my "resort" ski but also plan on using them in the backyard moderately rolling trails on occasion. thanks! if there is already a thread with this outlined then please just direct me there...

edited a second time to add that i just measured the eon 62, 185's, and using the tip to tail method the cord center fell 9/16" or 14.3 mm forward of the bp (or 36.25 " from the tail). not too much difference i guess and i should just go for it.

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Re: Chord Center mounting- does it make any sense?

Postby phoenix » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:24 am

Madshus instructs mounting pin line on balance point. I just searched "mounting Madshus Eon's" to verify, since I haven't mounted a pair of those for several years (I tried copying the link, but it just posted a frame of the video, which was no help).
Sorry if my posts have added any confusion; if anything I was hoping to suggest simplifying the issue.
Anyway, Madshus recommends pin line on balance point. I wouldn't worry about it beyond that myself, unless your boot size is significantly larger, or smaller, than a 42-43. This is an example of what I was trying to say, here's a current, long established xcd ski that still performs optimally with the simplest of mounting points.

Other opinions of course, are welcome.

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Re: Chord Center mounting- does it make any sense?

Postby lilcliffy » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:14 am

Ha! Yeah- Madshus does recommend pins on Balance Point (BP)- just as Karhu did before them with their last gen XCDs (XCD GT/Eon; XCD 10th Mtn/Epoch; XCD Guide/Annum).

In the past I stubbornly mounted them at Chord Centre (CC)- because that is what I always did (I still have a Guide and a 10th Mtn mounted this way).

All of my current Madshus XCDs have NNNBC mounted on them at BP- I must admit to prefering this- but it may have as much to do with the binding and the boot than anything else- and the terrain and snow that I am skiing on (I personally gave up on these skis for skiing truly steep terrain- they are wonderful on moderate slopes).

I certainly think that following the manufacturer's recommendation makes sense. But- from a purely downhill perspective, I can see playing with it a bit if one had either tiny or huge feet.

(As an aside- my 13-yr-old daughter has tiny feet, and the downhill stuff she does on Eons- at BP- with Offtrack 3 boots- is truly amazing.)

So- I get the downhill-modification- based on extremes of boot size- but, I am still lost as to what that has to do with Chord Centre?

I can see a manufacturer specifically recommending CC if it happens to lead to the perfect average spot for the boot location- but, otherwise, using CC as a universal mounting point (which I used to)- still doesn't make any sense to me...

Asnes has a boot-center (BC) mark on the Storetind- they recommend BC for an Alpine binding; pins on BP for a Nordic binding- and BP is designed perfectly so that pins on BP lead to the ideal boot location for an average-sized boot. They completely dismissed CC when I asked them about it.

Altai skis has very specific Nordic binding mount recommendations for their skis. When I asked Nils about CC, he dismissed CC as having any relevance at all, stating that CC is an arbitrary point on the ski, that is entirely determined by the shape of the ski.

The impression I get from Asnes and Altai is that if CC lines up with anything it is chance- not design...

T-$- what is your boot size?
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Re: Chord Center mounting- does it make any sense?

Postby lilcliffy » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:33 am

t-$ wrote:can one of you put the fine points down for me? i've seen the diagrams so i understand the basics of cc mounting, but what about the characteristics compared (edit: compared to balance point mounting) point-to-point?

1) turning ability
2) k&g performance
2a) trackability
3) fatigue

I can tell you that BP always feels best when XC skiing- and this includes XC downhill turning techniques (i.e. if you need to physically pick up your skis in step/jump turns.) BP is the K&G location, though moving a touch aft of BP will increase XC glide (while reducing traction)- moving a touch ahead of BP will increase traction (while reducing XC glide). XC racers will play with degrees around BP- but, for XC touring my experience suggests BP- adjust your waxing if you need more grip/glide.

Trackability of the ski is primarily influenced by the complex of sidecut, flex and camber. The Eon has a track groove, and faily straight tail- it tracks VERY well for a XC ski with that much sidecut.

Don't what to tell you about fatigue!! Eat your wheaties? :?:

Turning ability is influenced by mounting point, as it relates to the skis profile and camber/flex/rocker.

1) find the narrowest point on the ski (i.e. boot-center mark).
2) put your boot on the ski with the pins/toe-bar at the recommended mounting point (i.e. BP).
3) Where does this place your foot in relation to the boot-center mark?

gonna be mounting them with bc magnums and they will be my "resort" ski but also plan on using them in the backyard moderately rolling trails on occasion.

NNNBC is a dream on this ski. Alaskas too right? A match made in heaven. I think you may be surprised by how much you like this ski for touring- especially on terrain that you find your USGI is a little unwieldy.

edited a second time to add that i just measured the eon 62, 185's, and using the tip to tail method the cord center fell 9/16" or 14.3 mm forward of the bp (or 36.25 " from the tail). not too much difference i guess and i should just go for it.

Ignore the CC measurement for a moment. If you are worried about the downhill performance- find the narrowest point (i.e boot-center mark) on the ski.
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Re: Chord Center mounting- does it make any sense?

Postby lilcliffy » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:49 am

Just re-read your post.

phoenix wrote:Might there be a reason why in the K2 catalog, circa 2009, there was a thorough explanation of why they recommend chord center mounts?

Is this design, or did CC just happen to work out to an ideal-on-average mounting point? And- I am assuming this is a Telemark recommended mounting?

Case in point: I picked up some Objective's end of last season. Went thru all sorts of inquiries, here and elsewhere, to choose a mounting point. Spoke to the folks at Voile, and got their measurement. Put 'em on the bench and measured multiple times... turns out Voile's suggested point, chord center, and BOF/CRS were all within a half centimeter of each other. I have not yet bothered to match boot center of anything.

Forgive me- I am little confused. Are you saying that pins on CC was within a half centimeter of BOF/CRS? OR- do you mean that pins on CC put your foot within half a centimeter of BOF/CRS?

They ski beautifully, for me.

Nice. I want.

1 cm. fore or aft of whatever shouldn't be an issue for a skier; you'dadjust your technique, if needed, ever so slightly to accomodate.

CERTAINLY agree with you here- especially in the backcountry, where the snow and terrain is constantly changing- especially in the woods!
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Re: Chord Center mounting- does it make any sense?

Postby lilcliffy » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:57 am

phoenix wrote:I firmly believe CC makes all sorts of sense... provided the ski is of a more or less "traditional" design.

BUT- isn't this only true if pins on CC happens to put your foot at an ideal location?

I used my example of mounting the Objectives to represent the fact that, if the design dictates, CC may still be an optimal choice. And I'll add that along with CC, BOF/CRS, and manufacturer's point of measurement all being nearly identical, when I mounted 'em with 3 pin Spikes... the skis also balanced perfectly on the same pin line. Works for that ski.

So- pins on BP also gave you an ideal downhill foot placement- very cool- and the same as Asnes. I think this reflects Voile's commitment to backcountry skis and Telemark bindings. BUT- again is pins on CC by design- or just happened to be close? I find it hard to imagine that Voile designed the tip and camber/flex/rocker profile of the Objective so that pins on CC would work out perfectly... :? :ugeek:
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Re: Chord Center mounting- does it make any sense?

Postby t-$ » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:03 am

hey, thanks for the input. i am a size 42 boot, so nothing too extreme there.

phoenix, your posts are fine and helpful, the confusion lies with me!

part of my trepidation is that i want to maximize this ski for downhill performance with the xc setup. the other skis will be my main tourers as you say, and so i really only plan on skiing these when i'm looking for turns specifically. so i am willing to sacrifice k&g performance for turning performance, almost maybe to an extreme. that's why i was considering other mounting options other than on bp. but when i look at the difference on these its likely i wouldn't notice a difference if i put them on cc.

i will have to look into the boot center. just eyeballing it, it seems as though the boot is roughly centered on the narrowest part of the waist when i have the bar on bp. moving forward to the cc doesn't seem to have an effect on that. but probly overthinking it at this point.

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Re: Chord Center mounting- does it make any sense?

Postby lilcliffy » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:29 am

t-$ wrote:part of my trepidation is that i want to maximize this ski for downhill performance with the xc setup. the other skis will be my main tourers as you say, and so i really only plan on skiing these when i'm looking for turns specifically. so i am willing to sacrifice k&g performance for turning performance, almost maybe to an extreme. [

Cool!

i will have to look into the boot center. just eyeballing it, it seems as though the boot is roughly centered on the narrowest part of the waist when i have the bar on bp. moving forward to the cc doesn't seem to have an effect on that. but probly overthinking it at this point.

Well if the boot is centered with pins on BP- that is like an Alpine, boot-center mount...

Moving the mounting point ahead to CC will move the narrowest point of this ski closer to your heel...I don't know if that is a good idea...
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