Waxless Scale Patterns- What's your favourite Flavor?

This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web. We have fun here, come on in and be a part of it.
Lars

Rank: XCD Enthusiast
XCD Enthusiast
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:08 am

Re: Waxless Scale Patterns- What's your favourite Flavor?

Postby Lars » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:21 am

I am very impressed with the scales on my Fischer Excursion 88s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

martin2007

Rank: XCD Enthusiast
XCD Enthusiast
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:23 pm

Re: Waxless Scale Patterns- What's your favourite Flavor?

Postby martin2007 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:44 pm

I'm impressed with the grip on my Fischer S-Bound 98's. Enough so that I'm considering getting a pair of Traverse 78's w/ Easy-Skins.

anemic

Rank: XCD Pinhead
XCD Pinhead
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:39 pm

Re: Waxless Scale Patterns- What's your favourite Flavor?

Postby anemic » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:18 pm

I updated in another thread, so pardon the duplication but to answer the question here, the Glittertind MGV+ waxless pattern skis very nicely indeed. I skied them in soft snow and they kicked wonderfully. I was impressed. The pattern reminds me of a race crown in it's speed, design and length.

I think the most important feature of a waxless ski is it's flex. A soft flexing waxless ski will always have a draggy feel, like your ski has a speed governor.

I think one crown design versus another can make a difference on hard snow, but it's a matter of degrees, whereas adequate stiffness and high camber and going to dictate whether the ski feels draggy to a larger degree than the pattern itself.

If a waxless ski is soft, it will always have best-possible grip at the cost of glide.

If a waxless ski has low camber, the pattern will always drag no matter what snow type.

If a waxless pattern is longer than the pocket, it will always drag.

I would love to ski the Objective BC one day. I hear that is a great backcountry waxless ski.

The Glittertind MGV+ offers a tremendously versatile ski with a waxless pattern that is very well suited to the task, on a ski with enough camber to keep the pattern off the snow and let the glide zones do their magic. What a fun ski.
Call it Nordic Freeride

User avatar
fisheater

Rank: XCD Pinhead
XCD Pinhead
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:06 pm
Location: Oakland County, MI

Re: Waxless Scale Patterns- What's your favourite Flavor?

Postby fisheater » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:10 pm

Anemic, I read your review on the other thread. You did a real nice job of expIaining the mechanics of a waxless pattern that both grips and glides. I have never skied a ski as you describe the Glittertind. My experiences with scales leave me a little leary of patterned skis

User avatar
lowangle al

Rank: XCD Guide
XCD Guide
Posts: 930
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:36 pm

Re: Waxless Scale Patterns- What's your favourite Flavor?

Postby lowangle al » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:28 pm

I always felt the same as you about no-wax skis fisheater but the vectors are changing my mind. I find myself going for the no-wax version even in good waxing conditions because they perform almost as good without having to deal with the minor hassle of waxing. I don't mind not having perfect kick and glide but if I downhill performance wasn't there that would be a deal breaker.

User avatar
lilcliffy

Rank: XCD KNIGHT
XCD KNIGHT
Posts: 1764
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:20 pm
Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada

Re: Waxless Scale Patterns- What's your favourite Flavor?

Postby lilcliffy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:15 pm

Excellent Anemic.

The effectiveness of any waxless scales is a complex of scale design, profile (negative/positive), orientation (in relation to kick zone), as well as ski width, flex, and camber/rocker profile.

The impressive traction of a ski like the Vector BC has more to do with both the orientation of the scales (forward for climbing grip) and the complex of width/camber/rocker than it does the design of the scales- Voile's scales are as unsophisticated as they get- IMO.

The most grippy scaled skis have the flip side of increasing friction.

When the snow is ideal for scales- warm, wet snow- my experience is that most any scale design will offer adequate grip for at least XC K&G.

When the snow is not ideal for scales- either very aggressive designs/profiles- and/or wide skis with low camber.

From a pure traction perspective, my limited experience is that Fischer's Offtrack Crown is the most aggressive and grippy. But- in ideal conditions, the aggressive Offtrack Crown also offers a lot of slow friction.

But- the performance of any scales is fundamentally affected by the flex/camber/width of the ski.

For example. Fischer's Offtrack Crown offers limited climbing grip on the double-cambered E99 Crown. The climbing traction of the Offtrack Crown is more effective on the softer-flexing E109, even better on the 78 (which has the scale insert oriented more forward on the tip), and even better again on the lower-cambered 88/98.

What is best depends on the exact context, and whether grip is more important than glide...

I tend to only use scales when the snow is ideal for scales- therefore, I tend to prefer negative, less aggressive scales.

If I was using scales when grip wax and/or skins are better- then the more aggressive/grippy scale designs would be better.
The pursuit of XCD balance: cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry

User avatar
fisheater

Rank: XCD Pinhead
XCD Pinhead
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:06 pm
Location: Oakland County, MI

Re: Waxless Scale Patterns- What's your favourite Flavor?

Postby fisheater » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:48 pm

lowangle al wrote:I always felt the same as you about no-wax skis fisheater but the vectors are changing my mind. I find myself going for the no-wax version even in good waxing conditions because they perform almost as good without having to deal with the minor hassle of waxing. I don't mind not having perfect kick and glide but if I downhill performance wasn't there that would be a deal breaker.


Al, I have been on here long enough to know that both your and Connyro both like your Vector BC's. I am pretty sure that you have both. I just got a ski, a Falketind 62, I really think I like it and I don't really like a ski easily. That ski fills a different niche than the Vector would for me. Based on what you and Connyro both report, I would strongly consider that Vector BC. I was at the resort with my son today, a couple of the runs were chopped up fresh on top of firm. I got pushed around a bit. However the "Backcountry" area that requires a skate or kick to get to a lift was butter all day, even skied out (it was the operator not the skis). A Vector would be a nice addition to the quiver.

martin2007

Rank: XCD Enthusiast
XCD Enthusiast
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:23 pm

Re: Waxless Scale Patterns- What's your favourite Flavor?

Postby martin2007 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:43 pm

I haven't tasted enough waxless to have "favourites", but gave my S-Bound 98's a shot yesterday on the Fraser River Headwaters Trail up in Berthoud Pass near Winter Park, CO. Presidents' day weekend ski traffic was intense, and there was fresh pow, so after 2 hrs. of line-ups and weekenders' urgency at Mary Jane, I packed it in and headed for a BC trail nearby. I pulled out the S-Bounds and Arkos leathers. Temps were around -8C and rising quickly. There was lots of snow, and the trail had been skied already. My plan was to do an up-and-back. Man, were my skis slow! Decent kick, abysmal glide. I returned to the car after 200m. to dig out the Karhu XCD's and blue-green wax for the climb. Twice as efficient. Great trail. Back home, I hot-waxed the tips and tails of the S-Bounds and liquid-waxed the scales. I was about to try them again in Rocky Mtn. Nat. Park today, but once there, I opted for lighter and longer once again. I have a sneaking suspicion that the S-Bounds would be better fitted on me at 179 instead of 169. I'll update this once I've given the freshly prepared bases a chance to redeem themselves.

Cannatonic

Rank: XCD Guide
XCD Guide
Posts: 547
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:07 pm

Re: Waxless Scale Patterns- What's your favourite Flavor?

Postby Cannatonic » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:22 pm

"weekenders urgency" haha I get what you mean. I've had some bad experiences with the Fischer Offtrack bases on fresh dry snow as well, it can be unbelievably slow in those conditions IMO. Where it excels is warm spring corn. this is why many of us turn to Asnes, to get the XCD-type skis with waxing base for dry powder.

User avatar
fisheater

Rank: XCD Pinhead
XCD Pinhead
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:06 pm
Location: Oakland County, MI

Re: Waxless Scale Patterns- What's your favourite Flavor?

Postby fisheater » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:14 pm

martin2007 wrote:I haven't tasted enough waxless to have "favourites", but gave my S-Bound 98's a shot yesterday on the Fraser River Headwaters Trail up in Berthoud Pass near Winter Park, CO. Presidents' day weekend ski traffic was intense, and there was fresh pow, so after 2 hrs. of line-ups and weekenders' urgency at Mary Jane, I packed it in and headed for a BC trail nearby. I pulled out the S-Bounds and Arkos leathers. Temps were around -8C and rising quickly. There was lots of snow, and the trail had been skied already. My plan was to do an up-and-back. Man, were my skis slow! Decent kick, abysmal glide. I returned to the car after 200m. to dig out the Karhu XCD's and blue-green wax for the climb. Twice as efficient. Great trail. Back home, I hot-waxed the tips and tails of the S-Bounds and liquid-waxed the scales. I was about to try them again in Rocky Mtn. Nat. Park today, but once there, I opted for lighter and longer once again. I have a sneaking suspicion that the S-Bounds would be better fitted on me at 179 instead of 169. I'll update this once I've given the freshly prepared bases a chance to redeem themselves.


I own a pair of S-112, in 189, I really don't like the glide. I went looking for a tour for turns ski for my local hilly terrain. I went wax, with an Asnes Falketind 62. It has definitely pushed the S-112 back in the quiver. Not that I am thinking you are buying another ski, but I certainly will not be looking at a E-88 or an S-98. While it's not an ice ski, it holds an edge on hard snow at the resort. I know guys like their waxless Vectors and Objectives. There were pretty good reviews of the Glittertind waxless. For what is between those two I am thinking I like the waxable offerings from Asnes
BTW I have been on them enough that I offered a review. I don't think it is a ski on many people's radar, but based on what is available it should be.


Return to “Telemark Talk Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Verskis and 12 guests