"upgrade" to pins?

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t-$
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Re: "upgrade" to pins?

Post by t-$ » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:38 am

hey!

no need to apologize for your musing...i can get long winded myself at times. :roll:

some things:
1. i've done a few 20 milers and many shorter 10-15 miles skis on the usgi's. i'm not a big guy and muscling these skis over long days, some with good bushwhacking segments, my feet felt quite tired and i think that with pins it might make the ski/binding connection more stable and get less lower leg fatigue. they are just so heavy. which, yes, makes for great "momentum" on the k&g and i love their trailbreaking capability.

2. it would be nice to have better turning control and capability with them, especially at mile 18 or so when i'm gassed. from everything i have heard and read pins would give me the advantage here.

3. the ski was cheap and if i hate it i'm not out that much and i could always remount the mags. (more holes, i know...)

4. and now i would rather do long days on other skis and just use the usgi's in the backyard hills doing real short laps on deep snow days.

and wouldn't ya know, i popped on some used burnt mt 3 pins from a swap at another forum. i think i got a good deal on em. i am not going to mount them to the usgi's this season cause i am not sure what boots and don't want to drop a lot of money on new 75 boots. i'll wait...maybe i will try to get a new ski for a resort setup that i could build over the summer. i would feel better about having a one boot ski if it was geared more extreme to one end of the spectrum. maybe also try to score some of the brakes to make em more resort friendly?

so yeah, i agree with you and conny on that! we'll see how it pans out
3pins.JPG

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lilcliffy
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Re: "upgrade" to pins?

Post by lilcliffy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:03 am

t-$ wrote: 1. i've done a few 20 milers and many shorter 10-15 miles skis on the usgi's. i'm not a big guy and muscling these skis over long days, some with good bushwhacking segments, my feet felt quite tired and i think that with pins it might make the ski/binding connection more stable and get less lower leg fatigue. they are just so heavy. which, yes, makes for great "momentum" on the k&g and i love their trailbreaking capability.
How would 3-pins make the ski more stable? Do you mean that a heavier Telemark boot will make the skis more stable? If- so- I would say it depends on the terrain. A heavier boot isn't going to change the weight of the skis, in fact it will add to the weight on your feet- increasing fatigue (and unlike hiking with a heavy load on your back- where a heavier more supportive boot actually reduces fatigue- more weight when XC skiing will just increase fatigue). HOWEVER- if the terrain is very rugged and your fatigue is caused by constantly fighting to control your skis when downhill skiing- then a heavier more supportive boot may well reduce fatigue- but, again this a downhill control point- not a XC control point. 3-pin bindings are not more supportive and stable than NNNBC- not the bindings alone. But- if we are talking about Telemark boots vs. XC boots- and then even cable bindings- that is like comparing apples to oranges. A XC boot on a plane-jane 3-pin binding is not more supportive than a XC boot on an NNNBC binding. In fact- if one compares the current BC-XC boots in their NNNBC vs. 75mm versions- all of the NNNBC versions are more supportive. For example- the 75mm-3pin version of the Alaska has a SERIOUSLY wimpy sole compared to the NNNBC version- the same is true for the Rossi and the Fischer BCX6s- and UTE's test of the Svartisen reports the same. As Gamme the Elder says- at the BC-XC/XCD end of the spectrum, "the boot means more than the binding". For example, the Crispi Antarctic boot for rexample is not more supportive than the Alpina Alaska NNNBC (though it may be more durable, large-foot friendly, and is re-soleable...)

I guess I would gently suggest you focus on the boot first- not NNNBC vs. NN. If the skiing you want to do requires a Telemark boot, then first choose the boot- then the binding.
2. it would be nice to have better turning control and capability with them, especially at mile 18 or so when i'm gassed. from everything i have heard and read pins would give me the advantage here.
Again you are talking about boot power here- not binding power per se. I don't know if you have ever skied 18 miles in a stiff Telemark boot before...I certainly have- because the steep mountainous terrain required it- XC skiing it ain't.

The other option here is a lighter faster BC-XC touring ski. For example- if #2 is the issue- why would you take the USGI instead of the Eon? If that is not desirable because the Eon does not have enough camber and stiffness for long-distance XC skiing- then I would suggest an E99/Gamme 54/Glittertind/E109/Combat Nato/Ingstad with the boot and binding you have got would be better than slogging 18 miles in a heavy stiff Telemark boot...
4. and now i would rather do long days on other skis and just use the usgi's in the backyard hills doing real short laps on deep snow days.
Sorry man- you are completely confusing me here- doesn't this potentially eliminate #1&#2 above?
and wouldn't ya know, i popped on some used burnt mt 3 pins from a swap at another forum. i think i got a good deal on em. i am not going to mount them to the usgi's this season cause i am not sure what boots and don't want to drop a lot of money on new 75 boots. i'll wait...maybe i will try to get a new ski for a resort setup that i could build over the summer. i would feel better about having a one boot ski if it was geared more extreme to one end of the spectrum. maybe also try to score some of the brakes to make em more resort friendly?

so yeah, i agree with you and conny on that! we'll see how it pans out
Well- I totally get the desire to try new equipment! Wicked that you got a good price.

But if you are trying to figure out the performance advantages and disadvantages to all of this- my advice remains- I would focus first on the boot you want/need to do the skiing you want to do + the ideal ski. The ski part is important too because the bigger the ski gets, the bigger the boot you are going to need to drive it.

The "right" binding will sort itself out once you have figured out the boot and the ski. Focusing on the binding first is the "cart before the horse", in my opinion.

Will be very interested in what you think of those Spike bindings- I have considered them in the past- did recently- but, have never tried them, and they are quite pricey compared to the Voile bindings...Great you got a good price to try them out!
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.



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lowangle al
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Re: "upgrade" to pins?

Post by lowangle al » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:12 am

I think those binding will be a good investment for you, but I would save them for beefier boots and a more DH oriented ski.



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t-$
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Re: "upgrade" to pins?

Post by t-$ » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:27 am

yes i often confuse myself as well. but pt 4 above might negate 1 and 2 you are probly right. mostly just thinking of future options to maximize enjoyment! i would much rather now take the eon on distance skis, even with the reduction in glide and tour efficiency. haven't done it yet, so maybe i will report back differently.

that would leave the usgi for more focused backyard hilling. in which case i think i would want more control on that particular ski for going down. i know it's not a downhill ski, per se, but it is fun to do short laps on and i think that if i had better dh control it would be even more fun.

and yeah, i probably should find the boot to match my intended use. i do buy the argument the 75mm bail engagement on the boot would provide a bit more control of the ski than nnnbc. this is what i was referring to above. realizing that a lot of this is the boot and not the binding, that has left me looking at what the 75mm boot options are, and it seems there are more than in nnnbc. definitely not looking to go to a full on plastic tele boot, but i gotta believe there is a boot that is a step up from the alaskas in nnnbc, but not full on stormtrooper style. isn't this the tele-light gray area?

i have read all about the complaints of the 75mm alaskas. so what boot would be in that category (heaveier than nnnbc alaska, but lighter than garmont excursions? the fischer bcx6 looks sort of what i am thinking, at least an ankle buckle, maybe a midstep as well. but maybe stiffer? is this a holy-grail situation? the svartisen and bcx6 are what i keep coming back too.

and like i said, all of this may be moot cuase i might just go for a more true downhill/telemark rig in the future. or should i say tele-light since there's no cables? uugghh, this is all so confusing...

edited to add this linky:
viewtopic.php?t=381

and this:
https://alfaoutdoor.com/shop/ski-boots/ ... ar-advance
ouch!!!



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lowangle al
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Re: "upgrade" to pins?

Post by lowangle al » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:44 pm

t-$ wrote: and like i said, all of this may be moot cuase i might just go for a more true downhill/telemark rig in the future.
I think you will probably will want a pair of plastic boots for the future, unless you decide to move to Florida and take up golf.



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lilcliffy
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Re: "upgrade" to pins?

Post by lilcliffy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:00 pm

Plastic boots then.

Golf in my part of the world = deforestation. Despise it. Though I do like to drive some balls at the driving range with a few beers...
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.



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lilcliffy
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Re: "upgrade" to pins?

Post by lilcliffy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:22 pm

t-$ wrote: i would much rather now take the eon on distance skis, even with the reduction in glide and tour efficiency. haven't done it yet, so maybe i will report back differently.
Well- MANY people love the Eon as backcountry Nordic touring ski. And it is so wonderful both XC and downhill skiing- a very balanced XCD ski. The Eon and the XCD GT that is a copy of (and the XCD GT name) are legendary distance-oriented XCD skis.
that would leave the usgi for more focused backyard hilling. in which case i think i would want more control on that particular ski for going down.
Again- a bit confused...Why not the Eon here as well?

Personally, I bought the USGI because I was not satisfied with the Eon's instability in very deep snow, and I personally find the Eon too soft for my liking when it comes to K&G XC.
i do buy the argument the 75mm bail engagement on the boot would provide a bit more control of the ski than nnnbc.
I don't- at all. I do think that there is a limit to how much torsional force the NNNBC binding mechanism can handle- but, I don't agree that the 3-pin binding plate alone inherently offers more control. Again- I think that the "control" you speak of to drive your skis is in the Telemark end of the spectrum- not the XC. Evern after thousands of kms in the backcountry, there is less play and "slop" between my Alaskas and the binding than any broken in 3-pin XC boot I have ever owned. BUT- when I put on even my tour-oriented T4s, and pressure the ski- the diffence in leverage and control is night and day.
but i gotta believe there is a boot that is a step up from the alaskas in nnnbc, but not full on stormtrooper style. isn't this the tele-light gray area?
Well- it depends on how one personally defines the term "Tele-light", but to me this is what Steve Barnett was defining when he wrote of "Cross Country-Downhill". "XCD" = "Tele-light" in the purist sense- not that you cannot do a distance-oriented tour on even the heaviest, stiffest Telemark kit- and probably should if the terrain demands it. There are XC boots that offer a bit more stability than the Alaska- the Fischer BCX6, the Rossi BCX10 and BCX12, and the Crispi Svartisen are all examples of this (you can special order distance-oriented 3-pin boots from Andrew as well- the Alico Ski March is a good example of a distance-oriented leather Telemark boot).

From my perspective, there are two fundamental classes of boots in the Nordic touring spectrum- those that are distance oriented (i.e. XC) and those that are downhill oriented (i.e. Telemark). I really don't see an overlap here. You can have a XC boot that offer significant stability- but it is still a distance-oriented boot (e.g. Svartisen/BCX12). You can have a Telemark boot that offers significant touring flex- but it is still a downhill-oriented boot (e.g. Ski March/T4/Excursion). You can XC and/or downhill ski with ANY frackin' boot if the snow, terrain, and skis are the right context. Most skiers that cover distance in Telemark boots do so for good reasons- just as skiers that cover distance in XC boots do to. And- although there is obviously a physical limit to the downhill skiing most can do on XC gear- experience, personal fitness, and a boot matched to an appropriate ski makes for some awesome XC skis pointed down the fall line. I can crank full-on Alpine turns with my E99s, with just my Alaskas- but that boot ain't going to overpower and drive the USGI ski.
i have read all about the complaints of the 75mm alaskas. so what boot would be in that category (heaveier than nnnbc alaska, but lighter than garmont excursions? the fischer bcx6 looks sort of what i am thinking, at least an ankle buckle, maybe a midstep as well. but maybe stiffer? is this a holy-grail situation? the svartisen and bcx6 are what i keep coming back too.
More support than the Alaska is either the most supportive XC boots (e.g. Svartisen) or the most flexible Telemark boots (e.g. Excursion)- but there is big difference between the Excursion and the Svartisen.
and like i said, all of this may be moot cuase i might just go for a more true downhill/telemark rig in the future. or should i say tele-light since there's no cables? uugghh, this is all so confusing...
I wouldn't worry too much about what you call it. Like I tell my forestry students- call it whatever you want- what matters is that outcome- you can call it a "selective" cut all you like, but if all the best trees get cut, you are still degrading the forest.

The intent and the outcome are all that matters-

What kind of skiing do you want to do?
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.



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fisheater
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Re: "upgrade" to pins?

Post by fisheater » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:47 pm

T-$, first thing I want to share with you is that everything Lilcliffy is telling you is 100% spot on. I came into this sport from alpine skiing, then resort Telemarking. I started skiing late, around 20 years old. I started skiing fast, wasn't fond of turning. However I liked it steep, so I learned to turn. I became a pretty good skier, and got to the point where we headed west every year. I never toured, we stayed inbounds, but we never skied the pistes. Back in the days of skinny skis, there weren't lots of skiers skiing where we skied, we were pretty solid skiers.
I had seen Telemark skiers by this point, but the opening ceremony of the 1994 Lilleheimer Olympics hooked me. There was a parade of skiers making Telemark turns down the ski jump. Watching those skiers snapping short, round, beautiful, turns down that ski jump hooked me. I was going to Telemark. However my focus was downhill. Even my first "XCD" rig was about touring for turns, an S-112, Hardwires, and T-4s. A funny thing happened, really unexpected, really, really unexpected, I found out I like touring!
It might be two years, I discovered this site, hard to say, I didn't register quickly. I read about these guys touring, back country XC, which is what I was doing. The stars have to align just right for me to get laps in. Sometime along the way, I read about the Alico Ski March, a stiff, heavy, leather, TELEMARK boot. That was perfect for me, for where I come from. I can truely kick and glide in this boot, which I could not in the T-4. I also bought 2 pair of Asnes USGI skis. I bought the 200 cm because I thought I would put my son on a pair. At 200 cm I still have a wax pocket on this ski. My local trails are single track, and deeply carved into the terrain. They are steep, when I do not have grip there is no herring boning, I cannot get a ski to reverse camber to that degree. So those 200's work for me, and I can make them go pretty fast.
I wanted you to understand how I arrived where I am. I also have been looking at equipment for a while. Do not be fooled by support structure built into NN boot cuffs, unless the sole Is torsionally stiff that additional cuff bracing is not going to help you turn. Like Gareth advised, if you want a tour for turns rig, pick out the boot. People say the Excursion is softer than the T-4. The Ski March is not in their class, but it certainly is capable of turning 70 mm waisted single camber skis.
I like my NN gear, it works where I ski, however I see benefits of NNN tackle. I would think if you wanted to Telemark, you might give yourself the benefit of a full on Telemark rig. Enjoy your Eons, maybe catch an end of the season deal on a boot. But, don't mount a USGI with a three pin just because I like it. Good luck
Last edited by fisheater on Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Cannatonic
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Re: "upgrade" to pins?

Post by Cannatonic » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:03 pm

I think it'd be worth putting 3-pins - Rottefella super tele's - on the USGI skis. IF you can find a good boot that fits well, which is difficult. Most of my skiing is general XC/touring mode on backcountry trails and I use either Crispi Antarctic or older Garmont Tour 75mm boots on my 210cm XC skis. On my feet I do get much better support and control than the NNNBC boots like Alaska.

The traditional welted boots I use are based on a huge slab of rubber under your foot, I think it provides better transfer of control into the skis than system bindings. The boots are also heavier than NNNBC for that reason. And the toe of the boot is actually clamped flat to the ski...the rubber sole thus gives a nice spring action to the kick & glide. I like the added control, some people like the lower-resistance feel of NNNBC better.

The Svartisen might be too stiff for long tours, I've read reports of the plastic cuff and strap digging into peoples' legs. Antarctic is great, nice soft flex, but difficult to find. The Alico Ski March is excellent but heavier & stiffer, the cuff comes up plenty high on my leg for control btw, I doubt you'd want much higher for long tours. Very high quality boot.
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t-$
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Re: "upgrade" to pins?

Post by t-$ » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:15 pm

hey guys,

thank you for taking the time to write down your thoughts. i do very much value each of your opinions, as like i have said also, the advice i've gotten here this season has led me to some new gear that is opening my eyes to a different style of what i thought was backcountry skiing. so, take heart that i am hearing you and listening to what you say.

i don't know why i am so averse to plastic boots and AT level binding systems. i just dont want to go there. but at the same time i want to occasionally hit bigger hills sooner than a few years from now and be able to get down a blue run without being a total buffoon. but at the same time, i don't have any interest in doing it on heavy gear. i'm not a huge mountain bomber guy, but would like to have a good downhill run on lite gear. i know i will be able to do it eventually on bc, but we will see how sunday goes. maybe i am just trying to shortcut my learning by upgrading gear and not working on actually being a better skier. i would admit it might be guilty of this...

the usgi's are staying as they are for now. they really are a great ski with the current set up. i also guess part of me wishes i had the same exact ski but with every boot and binding combo i would want to try. then i could try them all and see the differences and see which one i personally like better for that ski. i guess i just am so green that i don't know what i'm missing with alternative technologies since i have only tried telemarking on nnnbc. it sure is a hell of a lot of fun tho, and mostly this is academic. except for the very tangible 3pins i have in the mail!! hahahah, shit....



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