Interesting site.

This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web. We have fun here, come on in and be a part of it.
teleclub

Rank: XCD Pinhead
XCD Pinhead
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:49 pm
Location: Wasatch

Re: Interesting site.

Postby teleclub » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:24 pm

Harris wrote:.... Another key point, which is explained very well in the video with the Ken Doll model, and is a must see to truly understand the gist of waist steering, is that what you are doing is radiusing/arcing the outside ski around a semi-weighted inside ski, using the waist to facilitate the arc. It isn't a brute move; it is somewhat subtle as far as the inside ski weighting goes...

Funny thing is I when I taught her to do this last week--"radiusing/arcing the outside ski around a semi-weighted inside ski"--I thought I was teaching a cheat because that was nothing I'd ever learned as part of Alpine skiing. But as I watched her trying to carve it just made sense to do that move, and I noticed that I'd been doing it too, to carve faster p-turn arcs.

re: rotating
Counter-rotating was always going to be harder to do on telemark turns than for parallel turns because you have to rotate your hips the other way (with the turn) to put your lead ski in front. P-turns you can counter-rotate from the hips up. But to counter-rotate tele turns you only have from the mid-waist up. Extra challenge is always a good thing. Obvious I guess for people who tele.

Harris

Rank: XCD Pinhead
XCD Pinhead
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:08 pm

Re: Interesting site.

Postby Harris » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:00 pm

teleclub wrote:
Harris wrote:.... Another key point, which is explained very well in the video with the Ken Doll model, and is a must see to truly understand the gist of waist steering, is that what you are doing is radiusing/arcing the outside ski around a semi-weighted inside ski, using the waist to facilitate the arc. It isn't a brute move; it is somewhat subtle as far as the inside ski weighting goes...

Funny thing is I when I taught her to do this last week--"radiusing/arcing the outside ski around a semi-weighted inside ski"--I thought I was teaching a cheat because that was nothing I'd ever learned as part of Alpine skiing. But as I watched her trying to carve it just made sense to do that move, and I noticed that I'd been doing it too, to carve faster p-turn arcs.

re: rotating
Counter-rotating was always going to be harder to do on telemark turns than for parallel turns because you have to rotate your hips the other way (with the turn) to put your lead ski in front. P-turns you can counter-rotate from the hips up. But to counter-rotate tele turns you only have from the mid-waist up. Extra challenge is always a good thing. Obvious I guess for people who tele.


Yep, it is funny because I got into a friendly but semi-heated argument with LowAngleAl over the matter, and not being with the times I was wrong in my defense of the single ski, alpine true carve. I guess I didn't get the memo. Everything changes.

I actually have always counter rotated a lot with my telemarks. BUT.... Not when I open the boards up to ski fresh powder. But for resort skiing tight lines or even GS, I've always used a lot of counter-rotation. You may have seen it before, but I'm attaching a pic I once posted from back in the day (1984), when I was a kid on the things. In it you can clearly see how much I like to twist up. In fact I used to work on my race turns by holding my poles cross-wise (lunch tray) and really accentuating my counter-rotation. A lot of telemarkers would fall to pieces skiing with poles held like that; it really tests your balance and the quality of technique. Is counter-rotation right? Not sure. Probably not the best these days with shaped skis. But it still does work really good when I'm working good; it just uses a lot of muscle. Worked good on old skis you had to beg to bend into a radius. But back then you really had to get your weight/chest over the boots while on edge to get them to bite, and if the weren't biting they weren't bending. But today is today, skis and bindings are profoundly better, etc. Technology is an amazing thing. I actually left the sport minus a few days every other year from 1987 to just a few years ago. Hell, I didn't even retire my old leather/plastic things until 1995. Which is a point... This waist steering I'm playing with has me re-inventing my wheel.
1397815_10151777273976811_12386360_o.jpg
Last edited by Harris on Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Harris

Rank: XCD Pinhead
XCD Pinhead
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:08 pm

Re: Interesting site.

Postby Harris » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:12 pm

I want to do a version of Ted Ligety on tele skis, at least for a minute. That would be the shit. Will it happen? Nope. Will trying help my skiing get to another technical level. Maybe. I'm excited to try something new again regardless. It is all about the yahoo, right?

teleclub

Rank: XCD Pinhead
XCD Pinhead
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:49 pm
Location: Wasatch

Re: Interesting site.

Postby teleclub » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:28 am

Great photo.

Racing is great for teaching you what's fast. Even the local tele series I've raced teach me stuff since I get timed and what feels fast isn't necessarily fast.

It's hard to learn what's truly fast in regular resort skiing since so much speed is available in regular steep terrain that you can always throw away a lot of speed and still ski fast, too fast. Speed is so available on the slope that it's way down my priority list. Then in a race where you're timed, you suddenly find every little bit of speed is precious and you can't waste it.

Harris

Rank: XCD Pinhead
XCD Pinhead
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:08 pm

Re: Interesting site.

Postby Harris » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:45 am

teleclub wrote:Great photo.

Racing is great for teaching you what's fast. Even the local tele series I've raced teach me stuff since I get timed and what feels fast isn't necessarily fast.

It's hard to learn what's truly fast in regular resort skiing since so much speed is available in regular steep terrain that you can always throw away a lot of speed and still ski fast, too fast. Speed is so available on the slope that it's way down my priority list. Then in a race where you're timed, you suddenly find every little bit of speed is precious and you can't waste it.


I got more into mogul comps than side by side racing (bump skiing was my gift), but I think that when I raced poles, watching the pro level guys ski definitely upped my game. In that particular race I posted, I managed a top 30 in my jean jacket and gaiters despite around 20 pros in their speed suits, but I'll never forget the race winner Mark Lances' run. Despite the ice, ruts and chatter marks he skied in a way I had never seen a tele skier ski. We can all go out and do the thing we learned ad nauseam but then someone comes along and shows a new way. I like better. I strive to be better. Competitions are perfect for that, showing us where our turns are weak and how to ski even better. I say that... I don't think the latest trend in telemark racing is particularly good for upping the mechanics of the turn. Modern telemark racing is a blend between super G and GS, in the alpine world super G isn't even considered a technical skiing discipline, toss in a joke of a gelande jump, a stupid roundy round and some skating in downhill specific gear and voila... WTF! To me it is skiing's version of a Chrysler K car; i.e. a conflicting hodge podge bullshit. I'd have much more respect for an uphill downhill, but as for the turn I think telemark comps should include a straight up steep slalom with no gimmickry or mogul comps on pro level, prepped courses. IMHO, that would push the technical development of the turn and gear way beyond it's current bondaged level. Skills you can apply anywhere on a mountain.

anemic

Rank: XCD Pinhead
XCD Pinhead
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:39 pm

Re: Interesting site.

Postby anemic » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:59 pm

Harris I played with waist steering versus counter rotation yesterday.

It was interesting that was able to dial up - or down - my level of twist which was super fun and revealing.

It is AMAZING how far the hips rotate from the counter-rotation position and the waist steering position.

I was able to see that I am often a born counter-twister without even thinking about it (maybe I got it from the book) but also that I naturally unwind it and square up (and begin to waist steer) when the pace goes faster. I tend to square up in proportion to the speed.

Before long, the snow devolved into all-time Michigan ice conditions. I remarked to the on-duty crew that some snow keeps getting on top of the ice in a few spots but if we could just get a zamboni on the hill, things should be greatly improved (haha).

I learned that I have a special "ice technique" which is in between max counter rotation and full square because in both cases I can pretty much spin myself out, especially when the ice patch is hiding unseen in flat light. My skis were NOT 'race tuned sharp' which could yield different results next time out.

It's super fun to begin a run in counter-rotation mode (if you have the pitch for it) and then square up for some speed carving - in the same run. It's like changing gears I didn't realize I already had.
Call it Nordic Freeride


Return to “Telemark Talk Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest