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"wing" mod for nnn

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:28 pm
by t-$
so i got out to ski tonight with my new-to-me setup and it was my first time on true leathers and 3 pins (mountaineers). i can honestly say i now know why the 3p guys would balk at the nnnbc. even in 4 inches of fresh snow from yesterday it was so much easier for me to "roll" my trailing ski into the hill. i wish i now had a leather boot as stiff as the alaska but for 3p! :? :(

so i was thinking when i was out there. has anyone seen or done a mod for nnnbc that was just extra plates or wings under the toe box? yeah they would stick out, but who cares honestly? no farther than the cage on a 3p.

i was thinking it would be fixed and only engage the boot when turning. it would be simple. maybe a slight roll or lip, but then the boot would have to align perfectly with the wings. if it was just a little bit extra at the toe...

maybe i'll go to the drawing board.

Re: "wing" mod for nnn

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:43 pm
by t-$
or maybe it has more to do with what lo-fi said here about the bof engagin, and i haven't been concsious of this so much yet but feel it way more when the toe is completely locked in the bail?


i dunno...wish i could ski like that tho :lol:

so maybe an stout toe box strap that could be used over the boots when descending and help keep the toe engaged with the wings but still a free heel?

i just need to stop thinking...ugghh

Re: "wing" mod for nnn

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:53 pm
by Woodserson
Magnums have these "wings" that contact most of the BOF...

Re: "wing" mod for nnn

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:57 pm
by lowangle al
Try this out T$. Screw an eyelet into your skis behind the heelplate. Now tie some some para cord to it. Then tie the other end of the paracord around your ankle so you can only lift your heel 2 or three inches. Next, before consuming any cocktails go out and make some turns. Let us know what happens.

Re: "wing" mod for nnn

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:25 am
by t-$
haahaha, thanks al! do i sense some snarkiness in that reply?! :lol: i'll have you know that i consumed 0 alcohol before skiing last night and, you know how it goes, am going to take a few days off from having any beers.

but on a serious note, i was thinking something like that would have a more positive effect on control and connection between boot and ski. maybe not, but i don;t see how it could hurt.

and the magnum plates do have that little bit of extra on the sides, but not out and under the toes so much. i dunno, just some thoughts.

Re: "wing" mod for nnn

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:26 am
by lilcliffy
I don't know why I am even getting involved in this conversation. I don't mean any offense- but I have had this conversation- or at least I think I have (?)- a few too many times. Can't seem to remember what the definition is of trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result...

In short- the mechanical advantage you are looking for cannot be gained from a wider mounting plate. Is your foot wider in your NN boots compared to your NNN?

The mechanical advantage you are feeling is not due to the width of the binding plate. Think about the width of an Alpine binding for a second. An Alpine binding on a riser is more like an ice skate than a NN duckbill.

A wider binding plate does not increase leverage, because it doe not increase the length of the beam in the lever, nor the position of the fulcrum. You could add 6 inches of wings and it would not change the length of the beam because you are pushing down- or pulling up- on the lever with your foot- you can't magically apply force to anything outside of the width of your boot. A narrower binding plate does not change this lever- again, take a look at an Alpine binding.

There is no greater mechanical advantage of the wider 68mm NNNBC-Magnum binding plate than the standard 58mm- it is the width of your boot pushing down- or pulling up- on the ski. (The extra width of the binding plate does reduce physical forces on the binding mechanism, however- which is why I put it on skis 68mm and wider).

If you are feeling that you have more leverage over your ski with your NN, then this mechanical advantage is coming from somewhere else (usually a complex of factors) other than the width of your binding plate.

What Al is suggesting will certainly increase mechanical advantage, at least in the dimensions of applying force downwards into the trailing/uphill ski when making a telemark turn.

Re: "wing" mod for nnn

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:36 am
by t-$
i see....thanks lc.

well, sorry to dig up a dead horse, and i do appreciate your guys' responses to my uninformed questions! i'm not sure then either where the mech adv is coming from. certainly not the leathers i was on. they are comfy, but not supportive in the least.
i had searched for similar mods, and i saw lots of conversation but nowhere that somebody actually tried something like it. no need to continue this discussion....

except that al's suggestion was an actual one?? i thought he was being a smartass!! :lol: show's you how much i know...

sorry, i'll try to stick to consumption and not content creation!! :D have a good tuesday er'ybody

Re: "wing" mod for nnn

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:07 am
by lilcliffy
Please do create more content- I didn't mean to suggest otherwise!

(I just meant that I am not interested in any more arguments over whether 3-pin is "better" than NNNBC- or vice-versa...)

If you did what Al is suggesting, by reducing heel lift, you would create another lever- the reduced heel lift creates mechanical advantage. The cord would stop you from you from lifting your heel any further, and as you applied heel force against that cord, it would transfer force downwards into the ski. Of course, there would be a huge dead neutral zone before your heel reached the end of the cord- which is why Telemark bindings have springs in them.

Weighting and pressuring that rear foot can clearly be done without a cable- but MAN, one cannot dismiss the physics...

If you are interested in experiencing the mechanical advantage that Al suggests- I highly recommend a modern Telemark binding- as opposed to a heel tether.

As far as your content- bring it on! :D 8-)

Re: "wing" mod for nnn

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:57 am
by t-$
i think i understand what you guys are referring to now by the heel tether. it makes sense that it would place force more at the toe if your heels was strapped down (but seems like that is reinventing alpine gear??)

and i certainly didn't intentionally try to start a discussion on whether 3p is superior to nnnbc. i need to spend more time on the 3p, but i really like the way the toe flexor in nnnbc affects the way the ski moves. maybe i'm just used to that coming from the xc world, but i don't like how stiff the ski feels with 3p. it's like it moves exactly where your toe goes and there is no flexibility there. definitely not used to that (and that's probably a terrible description, but you guys know what i mean).

really i love the magnums and alaska setup. it's purty niiice. just thinking that there has to be some way to marry a little bit more of the control of the 3p into the nnnbc platform. like split that difference between the stiffness of 3p with the movement of nnnbc. just to make it even better! maybe this is impossible, and it sounds like a lot of thought and discussion has already gone into it.

Re: "wing" mod for nnn

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:37 am
by lowangle al
I was only half serious with that suggestion, but I always thought it would be a good learning tool. If anyone would try it I think t$ is the guy. The purpose is not to create tip pressure like an active binding does. Rather it is to force you to change your stance by moving your hips back over your rear foot making it easier and more natural to weight the ball of the foot.

I think an improvement to the system would be to add some type of hook to clip to the eyelet when not going downhill. A tour mode.