Slightly active bindings: Voile Switchback or X2

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connyro

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Re: Slightly active bindings: Voile Switchback or X2

Postby connyro » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:31 pm

lowangle al wrote:Traditionally active bindings make sense with tall stiff boots for those looking for maximum power and control. What I found with the T4 is that the X2 increased DH performance w/o significantly affecting touring capability.


Same here with Excursions and X2s. Good boot/binding for touring on Vectors/V6s and the X2s increase the Excursions' DH performance. Perfect for my terrain and pursuits.
lowangle al wrote:I find It's important to keep an open mind because a new piece of gear or technique can change what I believed to be true for many years.


This is a good point. I think being open-minded about both old and new gear/techniques is important for any skier who aspires to improve their current technique and enjoyment.

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Re: Slightly active bindings: Voile Switchback or X2

Postby ColoTele » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:52 am

Thanks again for your advice, Al. Thank you also, Connyro, for describing your experience with Excursions and the Switchback X2 and your other thoughts.

One more question: I understand from Al that if I want relatively light tension on the X2, I can tighten the springs just enough to keep my duckbill firmly in the toe plate when moving my foot side to side, or a little looser for moderate touring or on easy terrain. When locking the X2 heel lever on boots, would you latch the lever on top of the heel step, or in the cable groove on the back of the heel? I'm guessing that either could work, but latching on top of the heel step may be more secure.

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lowangle al

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Re: Slightly active bindings: Voile Switchback or X2

Postby lowangle al » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:21 am

I always put the heel lever in the cable groove.

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Re: Slightly active bindings: Voile Switchback or X2

Postby Woodserson » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:26 am

This is a very interesting thread for me.

I have been experimenting with some mix-and-match on my Voile bindings and would like some thoughts from Al and conny.

My Hardwires haven't been giving me enough OOOMPH. I wanted more power especially since I put the HWs on bigger skis like the Sick Day 94. One thing I realized is that my 3pin cables on my KOMs are actually stiffer (significantly) than the blue HW cartridge and I am satisfied with the performance I get out of the cable on that ski but they are a little wobbly and not as smooth as the cartridges. The Rott Cobra also has nice power that like and it is also stiffer than the HW cartridge. I pulled the black SBX2 cartridges out of their box and since the HW and SBX2 tail pieces share similar heel geometry I replaced the blue with the black. I really like the additional power matched with the HW toepiece. However I felt like it was almost too much for the T4 (as I alluded to in the first reply in this thread). I'm not a very powerful skier, so I was giving thought of seeing if I could get Voile to custom the red SB cartridges onto a HW heel piece (IIRC the red SB heel geometry won't allow it to match with the angle of the rods coming off the HW toe). I'm rethinking this now since conny and Al are really pleased with the SBX2 paired with their Excursions and T4s.

So what exactly, does the term "collapsing the bellows" mean since apparently this isn't an issue with you two guys, and second how are you setting the tension on the SBX2 cartridges? Less than the 4-6mm indication? Any other advice?

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Re: Slightly active bindings: Voile Switchback or X2

Postby Rodbelan » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:13 am

Woodserson wrote:This is a very interesting thread for me.

I have been experimenting with some mix-and-match on my Voile bindings and would like some thoughts from Al and conny.

My Hardwires haven't been giving me enough OOOMPH. I wanted more power especially since I put the HWs on bigger skis like the Sick Day 94. One thing I realized is that my 3pin cables on my KOMs are actually stiffer (significantly) than the blue HW cartridge and I am satisfied with the performance I get out of the cable on that ski but they are a little wobbly and not as smooth as the cartridges. The Rott Cobra also has nice power that like and it is also stiffer than the HW cartridge. I pulled the black SBX2 cartridges out of their box and since the HW and SBX2 tail pieces share similar heel geometry I replaced the blue with the black. I really like the additional power matched with the HW toepiece. However I felt like it was almost too much for the T4 (as I alluded to in the first reply in this thread). I'm not a very powerful skier, so I was giving thought of seeing if I could get Voile to custom the red SB cartridges onto a HW heel piece (IIRC the red SB heel geometry won't allow it to match with the angle of the rods coming off the HW toe). I'm rethinking this now since conny and Al are really pleased with the SBX2 paired with their Excursions and T4s.

So what exactly, does the term "collapsing the bellows" mean since apparently this isn't an issue with you two guys, and second how are you setting the tension on the SBX2 cartridges? Less than the 4-6mm indication? Any other advice?


I am not sure I understand everything you say. But I agree: HW are very, very neutral. I changed the cartridge too (X2) and there is a slight improvement in stiffness... 3 pin cables can be stiffer, actually; you are again right... But for the Voile red cartridge, they are the same as the blue or green ones; they are used for exemple on the Voile straight HW (without the pins). Or do you mean fitting the Rotte red cartridge on a HW? What you could do is use your Rotte cartridge and wires in a 3 pin cable binding. It works!

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Re: Slightly active bindings: Voile Switchback or X2

Postby Woodserson » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:45 am

Rodbelan wrote:
I am not sure I understand everything you say. But I agree: HW are very, very neutral. I changed the cartridge too (X2) and there is a slight improvement in stiffness... 3 pin cables can be stiffer, actually; you are again right... But for the Voile red cartridge, they are the same as the blue or green ones; they are used for exemple on the Voile straight HW (without the pins). Or do you mean fitting the Rotte red cartridge on a HW? What you could do is use your Rotte cartridge and wires in a 3 pin cable binding. It works!


Well, the red SB cartridges are stiffer than the blue HW ones, I've compared personally. Maybe the old reds were the same but this doesn't seem to be the case with a the HW and SB now. Also the a Rott will fit on the Voile 3pin toe piece but not the blue HW, the rods hooks won't fit in the HW pivot attachment point thingies.

Ok, so someone educate me. I always thought activity was a function of location of the pivot point. The 3pin and HW share the same location for the pivot point, the SB are forward of this point and therefor more neutral, the X2s are further back and the most active. For me the 3pin/HW seems to be the sweet spot. I never liked the SB, and the X2 was great, but a tad much.

So now I'm fiddling with HW and black cartridges, wondering what people think, and when I'm worried that they are too stiff because I feel like the boot is compressing too easily and am I justified or just not used to it?

Thanks duderinos

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Re: Slightly active bindings: Voile Switchback or X2

Postby Rodbelan » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:11 am

What I meant is that the HW with blue cartridge do not provide much tele résistance, same with SB. X2 provide better tele résistance with a pivot further back and stiffer cartridges (25%).
I called Voile about the color issue; they told me that there is 2 kind of stiffness: the black ones (X2) and all the other... ?
So, 3 pin HW with black cartridge? Yes, definitely. You won't feel extreme difference but enough to make em ski better...

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lowangle al

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Re: Slightly active bindings: Voile Switchback or X2

Postby lowangle al » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:25 pm

Hey Woods, I'm not sure what collapsing the bellows is. Is it "breaking the bellows" where they bend to allow you to get your ball of foot down or something beyond where they crush your toes? If they are crushing your toes I think you're lifting your heel too high which more than likely is caused by getting your knee too low. The farther back pivot point combined with the stiffer cartridges lets you ski with a higher stance and may be bad for a low stance.

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Re: Slightly active bindings: Voile Switchback or X2

Postby connyro » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:38 pm

lowangle al wrote:Hey Woods, I'm not sure what collapsing the bellows is. Is it "breaking the bellows" where they bend to allow you to get your ball of foot down or something beyond where they crush your toes? If they are crushing your toes I think you're lifting your heel too high which more than likely is caused by getting your knee too low. The farther back pivot point combined with the stiffer cartridges lets you ski with a higher stance and may be bad for a low stance.


By 'collapsing the bellows', I meant when you can flex the sole of the boot to the point that the bellows have compressed as designed, allowing the ball of the foot to contact the ski.

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lowangle al

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Re: Slightly active bindings: Voile Switchback or X2

Postby lowangle al » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:58 pm

That's what I thought. The bellows on my T4 collapse pretty easily even with three pins.

Woods it sounds like you like where the pivot point is on the HWs but you want more activity from stiffer springs. It may be a good idea because you can tour w/o the heel throws and have extra power for the down. Let us know how it works.


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