Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

I have been out using my Objectives for the last two months on variable Australian snow.
Just great on the downhill. Tend to overpower my old Scarpa leather 3 pins but easily controlled by Excursions.
Tremendous grip on the uphill on all sorts of snow.
I think there is too much grip. Too much pattern under foot. I have used Atomic Rainiers with negative pattern for 10+ years.
So I used the paper under ski on a smooth floor.
The grip pattern forward of the binding doesn't touch the floor even when fully weighted over one ski. Behind the pin line the camber is compressed, even when evenly weighted on both skis. That is contrary to all my experience of pattern and wax grip. doesn't seem right.
The pattern extends way past the heel.

With all due respect to Voile for what is a tremendous light weight ski for the downhill, I don't understand the camber flex. My understanding of wax and waxless nordic camber is that the grip pocket should be from the heel forward. As weight is transferred to the ski this section comes into contact with the snow and grip then forward propulsion results.

I am pondering the idea of shaving off some of the pattern.
The forward part wouldn't appear to be providing much grip. Maybe don't need to shave this area. But to the rear of the heel there is a lot of pattern.
My next step is to get accurate measurements.

I would value other people's observations, comments etc.

Gordon

Well for starters, it's not a X-Country ski. It's a downhill ski with scales so the whole camber, camber-1/2, paper under the ski thing (especially this last one!) talk is somewhat a moot point here, IMO.

I am curious as to your weight and the ski length you chose. For reference I am 160lbs and I'm on the 178cm ski. I have skied them pretty comprehensively in all sorts of snow conditions. They are slow sometimes, but scale-slow. No slower than my other scaled skis. Low angle wet granular snow will make them slow. Faster in dry powdery snow. Faster in steep stuff, sometimes I'm happy to have the drag to keep the speed down. I am glad I did not bring them with me to Switzerland last spring or I would have been miserable skiing with my friend on his alpine non-scale setup.

I also hot-wax my scales. There's a thread somewhere about it. I found enough success with my technique that I used it on most all my scale skis.

If you are really desperate and don't care, I say go for the sanding down of the scales if you go easy and experiment. Some of XCD skis have gotten quite faster after their scales were ground down by granular, yet they still retain grip. This was a natural grinding down however, so it was even and gradual.

Also, just so you know, there's a big difference between negative grip (your Rainiers) and positive grip in terms of glide. What you make up in grip goes away in the glide. It's night and day.

All good points Woodserson.
I just find the position of grip strange.
My skis are 178 and I am 150 lbs
I mounted them with 3 pin bindings at Voile's recommended position.
1. the pattern seems too long.
2. The pattern forward of the pins wouldn't give much grip unless heavily weighted. This seems strange. What is it there for?
3. The pattern is in the dead centre of the camber, between the forward and rear contact points on the unweighted ski.
4. How the camber flattens out is not even with regard to the pattern.
I should set up some sort of glide test between the Atomic Rainers and the Objectives. Would need to tune and wax each ski well.
I have skied the Rainiers for years and like them a lot, which is contrary to most. I do find the Objectives better on the down though. Just seem to have stacks of grip. Shave some of it off and they should have more glide. Go faster.
I will contact Voile. they might explain characteristics of the ski.

Yep, this is an alpine ski with scales. Just like the Alpina waxless skis. Nothing to do with kicking and gliding.

The idea is to offer maximum grip for people that are usually using skins. (They wouldn't like it if the scales were tuned for XCd, like on the new Asnes WLs or the Fischer Crowns...)

I think whether the pattern touches the floor doesn't matter at all here. This is not a nordic ski. The ski is not intended for tracks, groomers or hard snow. But whenever you are off-piste in powder, the weight on the pattern will be perfectly distributed on the compressed powder to offer a very nice overall grip.

This is not a variable snow ski, it's a fresh powder ski. For variable snow, I would go with something like the S98...

But hey, shaving them to make them faster sounds like a very cool idea... Please keep us posted on this!

(Maybe you could just grind the whole base... I had a pair of flat Objectives and used them with grip wax a few times, they were fun too...! Maybe you would like them better than the BC ones?)

Yes to Johnny's post. I think it's important to realize that the ski is an Objective ski, which is designed and optimized as a downhill touring ski, and the BC version is the same ski but with scales on the bottom. They are not going to readjust the flex for the scales, they are just an add-on to an alpine ski. Nordic doesn't even come into this equation.

Most all my XCD skis have scales that extend forward of the foot. The scales usually end around my heel. When you are pushing off the ski in a climb the area forward of the boot will be weighted and you want grip there. I agree I think the scales on the Objective don't have to go so far back, but I think they were trying to cater to a class of skiers who have no experience with scales and are also going to be climbing steeper terrain than the typical Joe XCD skier and want to delay skin application as long as possible.

Bedford, the scales in front of your feet will probably give you grip in everything but the hardest snow even though they don't come in contact with the floor.

lowangle al wrote:Bedford, the scales in front of your feet will probably give you grip in everything but the hardest snow even though they don't come in contact with the floor.

Agreed 100% The scales in front of the toe help immensely when climbing in soft snow (breaking trail). These skis are not traditional XC skis.

gbedford wrote: The grip pattern forward of the binding doesn't touch the floor even when fully weighted over one ski. Behind the pin line the camber is compressed, even when evenly weighted on both skis.

Trying to visualize this...Is this the result of the tip rocker? Are you saying that when you compress the camber underfoot that the tip is off the floor- including some of the scale pattern?
As stated by others- the Objective is a backcountry ski designed for backcountry snow- that scale pattern is always going to be in contact with the snow- whether the camber is compressed or not- there is no traction/wax pocket on that ski.

That is contrary to all my experience of pattern and wax grip. doesn't seem right.
The pattern extends way past the heel.

Traction behind the heel certainly does not offer kick and glide performance, but it certainly increases climbing traction- though not as much as adding traction forwards of the binding zone.

I am pondering the idea of shaving off some of the pattern.
The forward part wouldn't appear to be providing much grip. Maybe don't need to shave this area. But to the rear of the heel there is a lot of pattern.

I would think that the forward scales offer significant traction on soft snow (I know that they do on the Vector BC and V6 BC). Removing the scales behind the heel would definitely improve glide- though you would lose some climbing traction.

Welcome, Gordon! (Not sure if you are new to the site)

Well you blokes are great.
Yes you are right, these skis have pattern to replace skins.
Compressing the camber doesn't lift the forward pattern off the snow but I can see that area would / does provide grip in soft snow.
I am going to experiment with shaving the pattern at the rear of the snow.
I think my technique is good enough to not need some of the grip and they will go faster.

Thanks again for all the excellent advice.