Nordic Backcountry Setup for Novice Skier

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petey23
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Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:30 pm

Nordic Backcountry Setup for Novice Skier

Post by petey23 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:55 am

I am looking for advice on a good "nordic backcountry" setup. First, a little about me and what I'm trying to accomplish:

About Me:
-I have a lot of backcountry experience (Avy I and II, 15 years splitboarding in the backcountry, 20 years winter mountaineering)
-I'm not a skier. I've had skis on my feet 5 times in my life.
-I will be skiing in Utah and Wyoming
-I'm a bigger guy, 180-190 lbs

What I want to do:
-Long tours (day or overnight) into the Uintas and Wind River Range
-Skiing over passes to get deep into the backcountry, without dying on the way down
-Tours with more horizontal than vertical (e.g. 30-40 miles RT with 4k gain) but concentrated vertical over passes
-Most terrain will be trail-breaking in powder, but also some wind crust and maybe some spring skiing (still with a focus on covering ground) as well

What I care about
=Speed on flats and uphills take priority over downhill ability. I learned to snowboard on some rickety stuff, and will handle frustration at sucking downhill better than being slow getting to my destination.

What I don't care about:
-Yo-yo skiing. If the point is turns, I would probably splitboard
-Skiing anything steep (couloirs, skimo). Again, I would splitboard. I don't anticipate ever becoming a good skier.

I've read a lot, but could really use some guidance that takes into account my total lack of skiing skills. For instance, Forrest McCarthy's blog has a lot info and is geared toward the types of trips I want to do, but I am unsure how to adjust his advice for my novice downhill abilities.

http://forrestmccarthy.blogspot.com/201 ... ordic.html

Any suggestions are welcome. Hopefully this isn't too much information!

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bgregoire
Posts: 1511
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:31 am
Ski style: Nordic backcountry touring with lots of turns
Favorite Skis: Fisher E99 & Boundless (98), Åsnes Ingstad, K2 Wayback 88
Favorite boots: Crispi Sydpolen, Alico Teletour & Alfa Polar

Re: Nordic Backcountry Setup for Novice Skier

Post by bgregoire » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:20 am

Interesting projects ahead! As you are totally new to the sport and planning on doing some far out and technical trips, you should expect to have to experiement quite a bit with equipment.

Your looking for the perfect compromise between long distance BC touring and good uphill/downhill capacity in the backcountry. I am assuming you are planning on camping as well during some of theses trips.

I would stick with 75mm bindings for the type of stuff you are planning.

The Garmont/Scott Excursion with Intuition liner is a great boot which will give you plenty of support in the verts and still offers ok kick& glide (although far from perfect). An intuition liner is great because you will be blister free and the insulation will remain dry and warm even after several days ski camping.

If you want better kick and glide (but less control on the down):
An interesting softer soled alternative is the Crispi Svartisen. Equivalent to the Fischer 875 but better construction. Another possibility is the Crispi stiffer soled norwegian welt Antarctic/Sydpolen/Bre. The Antarctic and the Svartisen are actually available in the US.You might even consider combining these boots with super gaiters if its cold and you are out for a few days.
http://www.telemarkdown.com/store/boots ... svartisen/

As for the ski you want...I am less sure, there are SOOO many options. I'd be tempted to recommend a ski with good flotation, minimal sidecut for flat touring efficiency. There as just so many ways you can go here. I'd have to get a better sense of the terrain you will be traveling.

Wax/Waxless? You are probably not into waxing if you are not already a XC skier...but man, you will get a lot better glide with wax on flats in cold snow. I'm thinking the Asnes Ingstad or the Asnes Falketind 62 or Rabb 68 might have potential. Asnes has the half skin insert which but be particularly interesting for you. You will probably want full skins in your pack too? I'm thinking Voile Objective too....

lets see what others have to say and what else you can tell us of the terrain?
I live for the Telemark arc....The feeeeeeel.....I ski miles to get to a place where there is guaranteed snow to do the deal....TM



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lilcliffy
Posts: 4112
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Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada
Ski style: backcountry Nordic ski touring
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Re: Nordic Backcountry Setup for Novice Skier

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:05 am

Wow! Very exciting petey23!

First off I would advise getting lots of miles on some skis. Do you have a local groomed Classic track you can get out and cruise on XC skis? Fastest way to learn kick and glide technique, practice with wax, etc.

I would certainly advise a waxable ski with both kicker skins and a full-length climbing skin.
Pulling a pulk?

Mostly skiing in deep, dry powder snow?

Most important place to start is finding the right boot.
For multi-day deep trips into the backcountry I would strongly consider a boot with a removable liner.

There are excellent NNNBC expedition boots available but they are not downhill boots.

I don't know anything about the terrain you will be skiing in...Although you are not interested in skiing downhill- will you have to come down steep slopes on skis?

NN-75mm boots and bindings certainly offer the widest range of performance- from XC to downhill-Telemark.
As a personal note- I do not trust the durability of backcountry-XC NN boots with glued soles. I would not go deep into the backcountry with such a boot. The world is full of reports of sole separation in these boots (e.g. the Fischer BCX875 is infamous for sole separation). For a remote expedition I would want either a plastic Telemark boot or a NN touring boot with a welted sole...

BUT- if you really are not going to be doing any technical downhill skiing than I advise you look strongly at a boot like the Alfa Polar:
http://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2152

The other thing to explore is the art of expeditions with standard Nordic touring boots and supergaiters. Ben (bgregoire) has personal experience with this. Have you read Andrew Skurka's posts? https://andrewskurka.com/2015/gear-list ... i-touring/
Andrew is doing some amazing deep backcountry winter touring in a simple Crispi Antarctic boot!!!!!
If you can manage to get away with the need of a double boot, then there are MANY boot options to choose from.

If downhill stability/safety is truly a limiting factor then certainly an Excursion class boot with a removable liner is the way to go.

BUT- if not- I would be looking at a boot-gaiter combination that fits you perfectly, keeps your feet warm, and optimizes overland striding efficiency. (I personally would not want to go on a truly long-distance trip in a plastic boot!!!)

So questions:
1) is there truly no downhill limiting factor?
2) what is the snow like- predominantly- that you will be traveling on?

In keeping with the Asnes fever(!):

Asnes' Combat Nato is the best deep snow XC ski I have yet tested.

Asnes' Ingstad BC is the best deep snow XC ski for very hilly terrain that I have tested.

Asnes' Storetind/Rabb 68 is incredible for long distance-touring in steep/mountainous terrain (But would be miserable XC skiing on dense consolidated snow).

Asnes' Gamme 54 is optimal for highly variable snow in hilly terrain.
Asnes' Amundsen for dense to variable snow on gentle terrain.

(No matter what- if you end up really getting in to this you will eventually end up with a number of different skis for specific snow/terrain contexts.)

Please forgive my long-winded response!!

First bit of advice- based on terrain/distance trade-offs- find the right boot.
Second- get out on skis on the track and develop some skills and muscle memory.
And no matter what- please post stories of your experiences and adventures!
Gareth
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.



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petey23
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Re: Nordic Backcountry Setup for Novice Skier

Post by petey23 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:42 pm

Thanks for your responses so far! This has already been really, really helpful. And no need to apologize for long responses -- as you'll see below, I am long-winded.

To answer a few questions that came up:

1. Camping/pulks/packs/weight: I will definitely camp occasionally on these trips, but that won't be quite as common as day trips (just based on time available). I also tend to go pretty light. I can't imagine I will ever pull a pulk; if I did, it would be a rarity. I would guess at the following weights for most trips, not including boots/bindings/clothing:

Short day trips: 190 lbs (me) + 12 lb pack
Long Day trips: 190 lbs + 22-24 lb pack
Multi-day trips: 190 lbs + 35 lb pack

2. Terrain. I'm not sure how best to describe this. I will definitely have to come down some slopes that are steep enough to require downhill abilities. These are one-way elevation/slope profiles of two trips representative of what I want to do. These are the steeper sections -- I cut out the 3-5 flat miles at the start, since I'm primarily concerned about my ability to handle these steeper sections downhill:
Trip1_HenrysFork.png
Trip2_TitcombBasin.png
There are max slopes in there that are 25-30% grades. I plan on bringing full skins and/or kicker skins, depending on the trip. I'm okay on the climbing side from my experience splitboarding, but those downhills seem steep to me.

3. Snow Conditions. My areas have "intermountain" (but really, pretty much continental) snowpack, so generally dry powder. I expect three main types of conditions, with a bit more time spent in the first two than on the last one:
-Beat down snowmobile tracks and logging roads
-Powder, often 10 inches deep or more, mostly in the trees
-Sun and windcrust above treeline

This trip report covers some of the terrain I am interested in, in the same season I would be there, but without all the low-elevation (under 9,000 feet) trudging:
http://t-dawgspeaks.blogspot.com/2017/0 ... trail.html

In terms of temperatures, these are average min/max air temperatures in locations that are roughly equivalent to starting and midway points of typical tours (9,800 feet and 10,800 feet, respectively):
Temps_TrialLake.png
Temps_FivePointsLake.png
My questions:
1. Boots - I have three considerations here, in no particular order: A. Efficient kick and glide. B. Turning ability for a novice. C. Removable liners for those multi-day trips. I tend to run warm, so I am not too concerned about warmth (and would be happy to pair my normal boots with a supergaiter if needed in specific circumstances). Given those considerations, it seems like a plastic is the way to go, since they tend to be sturdier for turning and have removable liners. But am I wrong about their superior turning benefits?

This is all short-term; to borrow a phrase: in the long run, we'll all own more gear.

2. Waxable versus waxless? I'm not a fan of futzing with gear I don't understand, but if the gains in speed are significant, I could be convinced to deal with wax.



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bgregoire
Posts: 1511
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:31 am
Ski style: Nordic backcountry touring with lots of turns
Favorite Skis: Fisher E99 & Boundless (98), Åsnes Ingstad, K2 Wayback 88
Favorite boots: Crispi Sydpolen, Alico Teletour & Alfa Polar

Re: Nordic Backcountry Setup for Novice Skier

Post by bgregoire » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:09 pm

petey23 wrote: My questions:
1. Boots - I have three considerations here, in no particular order: A. Efficient kick and glide. B. Turning ability for a novice. C. Removable liners for those multi-day trips. I tend to run warm, so I am not too concerned about warmth (and would be happy to pair my normal boots with a supergaiter if needed in specific circumstances). Given those considerations, it seems like a plastic is the way to go, since they tend to be sturdier for turning and have removable liners. But am I wrong about their superior turning benefits?

This is all short-term; to borrow a phrase: in the long run, we'll all own more gear.

2. Waxable versus waxless? I'm not a fan of futzing with gear I don't understand, but if the gains in speed are significant, I could be convinced to deal with wax.
Sorry but I'm not into doing the math right now to figure what type of skis would be best for you. Besides, LC made a good point, it would be a really good idea for you to get thoroughly acquainted with XC skiing and at least basic telemark maneuvers before attempting these hikes. That link of those guys on skimo gear is nice and colorful! Skimo is awesome for alpine skier types. No struggle with the down, but look at those feet ouch!

Unlike LC, I'm not afraid of the glued sole NN boots. Those that I did see fail failed slowly over many days before becoming unusable. If it were to happen, chances are you would have the opportunity to flag the defaults and change boots before your next trip.

A1. If would be a good idea for you to prioritizes your three consideration (ABC). This will have an impact on your choice of boots. As the temperature will be warmer than I suspected, you could manage without removables liners (if you go with leathers) and a supergaiter IMO. Plastic is surely sturdier and provides more control for turns...but you loose on K&G.

A2. You live on the other side of NA so I do not feel comfortable recommending one over the other in your case. Will the temperatures chance a lot in a single day?

Man, I really think you need to get a quick pair of skis and get out and try this sport out a little before working out such a crazy fun adventure! You will at least have a baseline then!
I live for the Telemark arc....The feeeeeeel.....I ski miles to get to a place where there is guaranteed snow to do the deal....TM



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lowangle al
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Re: Nordic Backcountry Setup for Novice Skier

Post by lowangle al » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:50 am

Hi Petey. For the type of trips you have planned I think you are asking a lot from one set up, especially at your skill level. For the distance you want to cover you would want the lightest gear,but for the terrain you would need the heaviest. For safety sake I would I would sacrifice speed for controll. A slope that you may feel safe boarding down may not feel so safe if you are floundering around, disturbing the snow, increasing exposure time and lacking the skill to execute an escape plan if the slope breaks loose. Plus a slope that a skilled skier can get down in a few minutes might take an inexperienced guy with the wrong gear a half hour or more and sap their energy.

If it were me doing one of those tours I would use my T4s with vectors. I would also recommend practicing beforehand rather than trying to figure it out in a remote location.



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satsuma
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Re: Nordic Backcountry Setup for Novice Skier

Post by satsuma » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:51 am

An inexpenssive alternative to some of the ski suggestions would be the USGI skis from Coleman's https://colemans.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=skis). YOu would need to mount your own bindings. I wouldn't be in a hurry to spend a lot of money on skis until you have a better idea what you want.

I would also recommend learning to XC ski in tracks. If you want to buy skis that can be used in tracks, look for ones with a maximum (tip) width of 68 mm or less (the USGI skis will not work). YOur alternative is to rent skis (and probably boots and poles) for track skiing. Heavy boots can be used reqardless of the width of the ski, but will slow you down in tracks.

I don't do much turning, but do ski off groomed tracks, and sometimes in powder. For skiing off of grroomed tracks, I don't see that particularly narrow skis or waxable skis will give you any great improvement in speed. Don't overdo the width, however, and get skis with some camber if you want any kick and glide. You'll understand this better once you do some track skiing.

If your turning skills are not great, applying skins for the downhill can be used as a form of speed control. They would be a necessity anyway in "steep" terrain (see below), and practical for waxable skis.

25-30% grades are pretty steep on XC skis. More than 15% you should have skins available even with waxless skis.

You don't mention your height, I am about the same weight but quite short (28 1/2 inseam pants). An issue I have is that the longer, traditional length skis, which would be about 200-205 cm for this weight, are difficult for me to get into a wedge. I like "short" length skis, which are more maneuverable, and probably easier to turn. . Again, I don't think there is much difference in speed, especially on ungroomed terrain, Examples of short length skis as backcountry from Fischer are the Outback, S-bound 78 and S-bound/ Eexcursion 88 (and wider single camber skis). Conversely, Fischer makes traditional length skis E-99 and E-109.



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lilcliffy
Posts: 4112
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm
Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada
Ski style: backcountry Nordic ski touring
Favorite Skis: Asnes Ingstad, Combat Nato, Amundsen, Rabb 68; Altai Kom
Favorite boots: Alpina Alaska BC; Lundhags Expedition; Alfa Skaget XP; Scarpa T4
Occupation: Forestry Professional
Instructor at Maritime College of Forest Technology
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Re: Nordic Backcountry Setup for Novice Skier

Post by lilcliffy » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:48 pm

Without taking the time to analyze your elevation profile charts...

Figure out limiting factors and safety first...

How are you going to handle safely skiing down steep slopes?

Lowangle Al's recommendation of the Vector and T4 (similar to the Excursion) is something to consider.

A ski like the Vector is actually an excellent XC ski in deep dry snow- and they are true downhill skis, with a combination of Alpine camber underfoot and a rockered tip they have good edge hold as well as decent float and early tip rise in powder.

HOWEVER- a downhill ski like the Vector is absolutely miserable on dense, consolidated and packed out snow.

The only ski option that will perform both in deep snow and on dense/consolidated snow is a backcountry-xcountry ski with Nordic touring camber (e.g. E99/E109/Gamme 54/Ingstad/Fischer 78/88, etc.) The trade-off of is that a XC ski is not going to give you the downhill performance (and safety) of a downhill ski like the Vector...

You can certainly mount a Telemark boot on a XC ski (i.e. T4/Excursion on an Ingstad/E109/Fischer 78/88)- this will be less efficient on the flats than a XC boot, but safer on the downhill, and more efficient on consolidated snow than the Vector...

As an example- if I am out on a tour on my Hoks or Annum/Guides- they are so tuned for deep soft snow that I will break trail in the pow before I would smear and shuffle along a packed out snowmobile track (YUCK!).

So- I see these as your control points:
1) downhill skiing.
2) long distances on packed out/consolidated snow.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.



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fisheater
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Re: Nordic Backcountry Setup for Novice Skier

Post by fisheater » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:45 pm

Hello,
I have been following since your original post. I also followed your link. After waiting and thoughtfully reading the responses I will offer an opinion. Firstly I am going to assume, that since you split board you can survival turn two planks as well as being comfortable gliding on two planks. With the possibility of doing overnights and because your snowpack could conceivably get heavy from time to time, why not start with a plastic double boot? You really can't go wrong with a T-4 or Excursion. Down the road you may want to go with a do it yourself leather double boot
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2143
The linked article highlights NNN boots, but you could do a 3 pin as well.
I really think a Voile Vector would be a pretty safe recommendation for a ski. I have never skied or kicked this ski, but it is generally well reviewed and preferred by several skiers here. The Utra Vector and Hyper Vector come in waxless fishscale versions, so you don't need to learn how to wax.
I would probably prefer a Asnes Rabbe 68 (the latest incarnation of the Storetind, which was a Ski to be considered in your link) or maybe a Tind 86 from Asnes. Both of these skis are more narrow than the Vector. The Tind compares in geometry to the Voile Objective, but is available in longer sizes. Now I have not seen reviews of either of these skis, but I am pleased with my Asnes skis. I also prefer kick wax, and these skis offer a X-skin (integrally mounted kicker skin). The X-skin allows you to wax in cold snow when waxing is quite easy, and have great grip with the skin when waxing is not working. Please bear in mind many people prefer scaled skis. I am only offering my opinion.
I do envy your skiing backyard. I sincerely hope you will share your adventures with us. I also hope you take more photos than I do!
Cheers



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