NNN-BC versus Pins: Just the facts

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Johnny
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Re: NNN-BC versus Pins: Just the facts

Post by Johnny » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:45 pm

fisheater wrote:Wow Johnny, quite a collection! So many skis, but you are in a land of much snow.
Not mine! It was posted by Asnes earlier this week... I thought it was quite appropriate to paste here... 8-)

Big difference in the Mountain Race Turski series and the Fjellski series. The Turskis are super light and softer. The Fjellski BC series (Gamme, Amundsen etc) are a bit heavier and stiffer. They are all awesome skis with different uses.

It's the new nordic backcountry norm on everything here, including the 62, the 68 and the 86. I do not think I will ever mount another 75mm binding in this life... Except for rock skis or funny projects perhaps...
Mountain Mitch wrote:There’s a reason all the big mountain tele boots are duckbills.
Yep, and that reason is that people are buying... Supply/demand... ;)

I am not talking about big mountain boots with plastic duckbills here. I am talking about XCD boots, with rubber duckbills and no cables. Scarpa and Scott boots do not apply here... 8-)
/...\ Peace, Love, Telemark and Tofu /...\
"And if you like to risk your neck, we'll boom down Sutton in old Quebec..."

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lilcliffy
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Re: NNN-BC versus Pins: Just the facts

Post by lilcliffy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:08 pm

Sir Johnny,
You are an XCD Voyageur.
Your fellow Nordic Norm Nerd skiing in the Acadian Hills,
LilCliffy
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.



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lilcliffy
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Occupation: Forestry Professional
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Re: NNN-BC versus Pins: Just the facts

Post by lilcliffy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:20 pm

Okay.
So forgive me- this may take me quite a few words to articulate my thoughts on this…

The first point I want to make is that Johnny is speaking exclusively about “Cross-Country Shoes”. Any comment he makes about “XCD” purely refers to downhill skiing with cross-country shoes and bindings. He is not comparing XC boots and bindings to rigid powerful Telemark boots and bindings.

SO FACT- NNN is a better cross-country technology than NN. This is just a fact. It is world-class athletic competition that pushes the evolution of this. If NN were a better XC technology we would still see the RAT TRAP on the world circuit.

SO- FACTS.
NNN is designed, and meticulously manufactured according to Rottefella’s obsessive standards. This includes both the binding and the boot sole!!!! There is ZERO play between the boot and the binding. Something that cannot be said about NN. I have NEVER seen a boot mounted in a 3-pin bale that does not have lateral play in it.

Other facts- there is a limit to the torque that an NNN binding can handle. The NNN-BC binding has a wider platform than standard NNN- therefore it can handle more torsional force than a standard NNN platform (designed for the track). NN- with its 75mm platform- can handle more torsional forces than even the widest NNN-BC platform- the 68mm Magnum. Therefore, one can mount great big fucking downhill boots on a 75mm baseplate and it doesn’t rip it all to hell. And the biggest most rigid downhill Telemark boots require much more than old-school NN 3-screw mount!

Comparing a big-mountain Telemark boot to a XC boot is assnine.

I suppose Rottefella could keep increasing the width of the NNNBC binding plate to accommodate more and more torsional force as Johnny keeps putting NNNBC on wider and wider skis…But- Rottefella probably needs more than a couple of XCD Voyageurs to make the business case for a NNNBC binding with a 80mm base plate…

So now the lies.

NNN is prone to breakage and the fucking “toe bar ripping out”. How come there are no photos of this phenomenon on the ubiquitous internet? How come a company like Alfa’s premier expedition boot is the Polar NNN-BC? I have over 5000kms of hillcountry touring on my current Alaska NNBC boots- over hill, underhill, deep fucking snow, breakable crust, hemiboreal tree thickets, endless semi-frozen brooks of ice and water- there now is a little bit of play and movement in the toe bar (on my right foot)- but the fucking bar has certainly not ripped out…

A boot sole separating or tearing off has nothing to do with binding failure.

The internet is full of videos of people grabbing a super sissy wimpy NNN track touring boot and bending it all over the place. The funniest videos are the ones where the boot is engaged in the binding and the boot sole doesn’t even budge a millimeter, while it is engaged in the binding rails and the boot-upper bends and twists all over the place and the commentator suggests that this is somehow evidence that the binding sucks!

Soft, cross-country boots are not torsionally rigid- period. This has nothing to do with the binding. What motivates some asshole with waaaay too much time to make home videos- and clearly not enough time to ski- trying to convince us that XC touring boots are soft and not downhill boots?

So here comes the real dilemma.

NN-75mm is an excellent and highly versatile binding platform. Does it offer the highest performance XC performance? NO. Does it offer the highest performance downhill performance? NO.

Fighting about whether NN is better than NNN is leads to the same horrific outcome where the Nazi Party gets elected because all of the truly representative vote is split voting for fucking assholes that want to be the Queen and won’t go to the Capital and learn to get along with everyone that was elected…

At the XC/XCD end of the spectrum, there is a LOT of overlap between NNN-BC and NN.

This overlap continues to split our purchasing vote.

The refusal of old crusty Baby-Boomers to trust the “toe-bar” of NNN- despite the fact that a boot weighted on a NNN binding is not supported by the toe bar, but the binding rails- means that the boundaries of NNNBC boots have actually not been pushed. Why are manufacturers no longer producing boots like the Alpina 2500? Not because they didn’t work- or weren’t worthy of improvement- but, because people don’t like change.

So- that leads us to the Present.

Most-downhill focused Telemark skiers have opted for more and more rigid and powerful boots, to drive wider and wider skis- needing bindings that will handle all of that torque (CERTAINLY waaaaay to much torque for a meagre 58mm NNNBC binding plate to handle…

Track-based XC skiing has long since abandoned NN…

Nordic tourers can choose between NNNBC or NN…In one sense this a great thing. And for those of us that can’t find a damn NNNBC boot that will fit- or vice-versa- the availability of both platforms is a saviour!!!!

But if one wants more support than a “XC shoe” can offer- but doesn’t want the Ball-and-Chain of a Downhill boot on our feet- the only option currently is to rely on old-school 3-pin NN-75mm Telemark touring boots. This is not because NNNBC bindings won’t handle such a boot- it is because these skiers still prefer to buy NN-75mm 3pin boots.

I personally much prefer NNNBC for backcountry Nordic touring. As a xcountry technology it is better than NN. If I could buy a more supportive light Telemark boot that would work with NNN-BC I would drop NN-75mm for this type of skiing…

But seeing as how I can’t buy a boot as supportive as an Asolo Extreme or Garmont Excursion with an NNNBC sole- I will continue to use both NNNBC and NN.

And I will continue to worry about the Fascists being elected and getting rid of whichever binding platform is not Macho enough- regardless of what people actually want and need…

And BTW- the popularity of NNNBC is due to all of those backcountry Nordic ski tourers in Fennoscandia- not a result of the very meagre North American Nordic Backcountry market…

Long love and live both NNN and NN.

I just hope that there is always enough Nordic ski tourers in the world that manufacturers keep making equipment suitable for distance traveling in the remote hills, mountains and Polar wastelands…

Otherwise we would only have SkiMo and freestyle track equipment to buy…

Even Classic Kick & Glide cross-country competition only continues to exist because of tradition and culture…

If you want to fly on the track- skate. And try skating in 3 feet of fresh snow…

In the end, we may all end up returning to homemade wooden skis, fur boots, permanent skins, and a tiak/lurk/hunting spear…
ancient finnish skier.jpeg
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.



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Coolwhip
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Re: NNN-BC versus Pins: Just the facts

Post by Coolwhip » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:44 am

lilcliffy wrote:I personally much prefer NNNBC for backcountry Nordic touring. As a xcountry technology it is better than NN. If I could buy a more supportive light Telemark boot that would work with NNN-BC I would drop NN-75mm for this type of skiing…
Maybe you could cobble something together if you're a do-it-yourselfer: https://www.ratchetingbuckles.com/ratch ... er-straps/. Personally, I wouldn't feel real safe using a stiff T4+ boot with an nnnbc connection. No release, steeper terrain, speed and torque leads to bigger potential for leg injuries. As you said, there's no play in that system. In the right sort of tumble you'd be hoping for the bar to break.

Edit to add:
I guess there are release plates for NNN-BC, still I can see why there's more development focus on NTN and tech. Also, there might be intellectual property concerns for Rottefella - investing too much in marketing a system that, in a beefed-up version, would compete with their own NTN, but could be copied (as their NNN bindings are by Salomon). Just speculating though.
lilcliffy wrote:In the end, we may all end up returning to homemade wooden skis, fur boots, permanent skins, and a tiak/lurk/hunting spear…
Permanent skins are making a return. I'm hoping the other things make a comeback too. :lol:
Last edited by Coolwhip on Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:04 am, edited 2 times in total.



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Mountain Mitch
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Re: NNN-BC versus Pins: Just the facts

Post by Mountain Mitch » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:02 am

lilcliffy wrote:Okay.
So forgive me- this may take me quite a few words to articulate my thoughts on this…

The first point I want to make is that Johnny is speaking exclusively about “Cross-Country Shoes”. Any comment he makes about “XCD” purely refers to downhill skiing with cross-country shoes and bindings. He is not comparing XC boots and bindings to rigid powerful Telemark boots and bindings.


So now the lies.

NNN is prone to breakage and the fucking “toe bar ripping out”. How come there are no photos of this phenomenon on the ubiquitous internet? How come a company like Alfa’s premier expedition boot is the Polar NNN-BC? I have over 5000kms of hillcountry touring on my current Alaska NNBC boots- over hill, underhill, deep fucking snow, breakable crust, hemiboreal tree thickets, endless semi-frozen brooks of ice and water- there now is a little bit of play and movement in the toe bar (on my right foot)- but the fucking bar has certainly not ripped out…

A boot sole separating or tearing off has nothing to do with binding failure.

The internet is full of videos of people grabbing a super sissy wimpy NNN track touring boot and bending it all over the place. The funniest videos are the ones where the boot is engaged in the binding and the boot sole doesn’t even budge a millimeter, while it is engaged in the binding rails and the boot-upper bends and twists all over the place and the commentator suggests that this is somehow evidence that the binding sucks!

Soft, cross-country boots are not torsionally rigid- period. This has nothing to do with the binding. What motivates some asshole with waaaay too much time to make home videos- and clearly not enough time to ski- trying to convince us that XC touring boots are soft and not downhill boots?

So here comes the real dilemma.

NN-75mm is an excellent and highly versatile binding platform. Does it offer the highest performance XC performance? NO. Does it offer the highest performance downhill performance? NO.
What a load of nonsense! Of course NN offers superior downhill performance compared to NNNBC. Your very comments about torque explains why.

And, since I have had a NNNBC bar rip out of a boot I can say categorically that is not a lie. It happens - due to torquing forces. And while you are correct that it is a failure of the boot, it is a failure of the boot as an integral part of the binding system.

I thought this forum was for telemark skiers, not just cross country types. If we are talking gentle cross country trails by all means use NNNBC. If you want to telemark in the mountains (not just resorts) get duckbills



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Re: NNN-BC versus Pins: Just the facts

Post by Rodbelan » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:58 am

lilcliffy wrote:Okay.
So forgive me- this may take me quite a few words to articulate my thoughts on this…

The first point I want to make is that Johnny is speaking exclusively about “Cross-Country Shoes”. Any comment he makes about “XCD” purely refers to downhill skiing with cross-country shoes and bindings. He is not comparing XC boots and bindings to rigid powerful Telemark boots and bindings.

SO FACT- NNN is a better cross-country technology than NN. This is just a fact. It is world-class athletic competition that pushes the evolution of this. If NN were a better XC technology we would still see the RAT TRAP on the world circuit.

SO- FACTS.
NNN is designed, and meticulously manufactured according to Rottefella’s obsessive standards. This includes both the binding and the boot sole!!!! There is ZERO play between the boot and the binding. Something that cannot be said about NN. I have NEVER seen a boot mounted in a 3-pin bale that does not have lateral play in it.

Other facts- there is a limit to the torque that an NNN binding can handle. The NNN-BC binding has a wider platform than standard NNN- therefore it can handle more torsional force than a standard NNN platform (designed for the track). NN- with its 75mm platform- can handle more torsional forces than even the widest NNN-BC platform- the 68mm Magnum. Therefore, one can mount great big fucking downhill boots on a 75mm baseplate and it doesn’t rip it all to hell. And the biggest most rigid downhill Telemark boots require much more than old-school NN 3-screw mount!

Comparing a big-mountain Telemark boot to a XC boot is assnine.

I suppose Rottefella could keep increasing the width of the NNNBC binding plate to accommodate more and more torsional force as Johnny keeps putting NNNBC on wider and wider skis…But- Rottefella probably needs more than a couple of XCD Voyageurs to make the business case for a NNNBC binding with a 80mm base plate…

So now the lies.

NNN is prone to breakage and the fucking “toe bar ripping out”. How come there are no photos of this phenomenon on the ubiquitous internet? How come a company like Alfa’s premier expedition boot is the Polar NNN-BC? I have over 5000kms of hillcountry touring on my current Alaska NNBC boots- over hill, underhill, deep fucking snow, breakable crust, hemiboreal tree thickets, endless semi-frozen brooks of ice and water- there now is a little bit of play and movement in the toe bar (on my right foot)- but the fucking bar has certainly not ripped out…

A boot sole separating or tearing off has nothing to do with binding failure.

The internet is full of videos of people grabbing a super sissy wimpy NNN track touring boot and bending it all over the place. The funniest videos are the ones where the boot is engaged in the binding and the boot sole doesn’t even budge a millimeter, while it is engaged in the binding rails and the boot-upper bends and twists all over the place and the commentator suggests that this is somehow evidence that the binding sucks!

Soft, cross-country boots are not torsionally rigid- period. This has nothing to do with the binding. What motivates some asshole with waaaay too much time to make home videos- and clearly not enough time to ski- trying to convince us that XC touring boots are soft and not downhill boots?

So here comes the real dilemma.

NN-75mm is an excellent and highly versatile binding platform. Does it offer the highest performance XC performance? NO. Does it offer the highest performance downhill performance? NO.

Fighting about whether NN is better than NNN is leads to the same horrific outcome where the Nazi Party gets elected because all of the truly representative vote is split voting for fucking assholes that want to be the Queen and won’t go to the Capital and learn to get along with everyone that was elected…

At the XC/XCD end of the spectrum, there is a LOT of overlap between NNN-BC and NN.

This overlap continues to split our purchasing vote.

The refusal of old crusty Baby-Boomers to trust the “toe-bar” of NNN- despite the fact that a boot weighted on a NNN binding is not supported by the toe bar, but the binding rails- means that the boundaries of NNNBC boots have actually not been pushed. Why are manufacturers no longer producing boots like the Alpina 2500? Not because they didn’t work- or weren’t worthy of improvement- but, because people don’t like change.

So- that leads us to the Present.

Most-downhill focused Telemark skiers have opted for more and more rigid and powerful boots, to drive wider and wider skis- needing bindings that will handle all of that torque (CERTAINLY waaaaay to much torque for a meagre 58mm NNNBC binding plate to handle…

Track-based XC skiing has long since abandoned NN…

Nordic tourers can choose between NNNBC or NN…In one sense this a great thing. And for those of us that can’t find a damn NNNBC boot that will fit- or vice-versa- the availability of both platforms is a saviour!!!!

But if one wants more support than a “XC shoe” can offer- but doesn’t want the Ball-and-Chain of a Downhill boot on our feet- the only option currently is to rely on old-school 3-pin NN-75mm Telemark touring boots. This is not because NNNBC bindings won’t handle such a boot- it is because these skiers still prefer to buy NN-75mm 3pin boots.

I personally much prefer NNNBC for backcountry Nordic touring. As a xcountry technology it is better than NN. If I could buy a more supportive light Telemark boot that would work with NNN-BC I would drop NN-75mm for this type of skiing…

But seeing as how I can’t buy a boot as supportive as an Asolo Extreme or Garmont Excursion with an NNNBC sole- I will continue to use both NNNBC and NN.

And I will continue to worry about the Fascists being elected and getting rid of whichever binding platform is not Macho enough- regardless of what people actually want and need…

And BTW- the popularity of NNNBC is due to all of those backcountry Nordic ski tourers in Fennoscandia- not a result of the very meagre North American Nordic Backcountry market…

Long love and live both NNN and NN.

I just hope that there is always enough Nordic ski tourers in the world that manufacturers keep making equipment suitable for distance traveling in the remote hills, mountains and Polar wastelands…

Otherwise we would only have SkiMo and freestyle track equipment to buy…

Even Classic Kick & Glide cross-country competition only continues to exist because of tradition and culture…

If you want to fly on the track- skate. And try skating in 3 feet of fresh snow…

In the end, we may all end up returning to homemade wooden skis, fur boots, permanent skins, and a tiak/lurk/hunting spear…

ancient finnish skier.jpeg
I agree with some, disagree sometimes also... but that's okay. What I do not understand is why you take it so personally? «Asshole» and «crusty baby boomers»... You do not need that to make your point I guess...
É y fa ty fret? On é ty ben dun ti cotton waté?
célèbre et ancien chant celtique



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lowangle al
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Re: NNN-BC versus Pins: Just the facts

Post by lowangle al » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:03 am

There were way too many expletives in there for this crusty baby boomer, especially coming from someone with so much snow.



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Re: NNN-BC versus Pins: Just the facts

Post by fisheater » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:00 am

I at one time frequented a kayak fishing forum that disintegrated into name calling and bickering over equipment choices. One of the older and wiser members had in his avatar, a little slogan to the effect "Never disparage the way a man seeks his enjoyment, unless it is something that is hurtful to others". Those words kept me out of the fray.
We love are skiing, and are passionate about it. There are many here I would like to meet face to face and ski with. I have been here a few years, mostly good men, I have seen very little malicious behavior towards anybody.
Yes, I am a crusty old baby boomer, I try to defy my age, but we all know that it's just resistance.
May the Peace of the Christmas Season be with you all, and be here on this forum where I had much enjoyment.
Bob Wiest
Auburn Hills, MI



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lilcliffy
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Re: NNN-BC versus Pins: Just the facts

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:10 pm

I wish to apologize for my most recent post.
Please forgive me.

It was not my intent to offend anyone.
I am afraid I can have a bit of potty mouth (growing up cutting wood for a living where foul language is part of the culture still comes out in me at times)- my use of foul language was inappropriate.

My use of language was poor and obviously ineffective, it clearly destroyed anything useful that I wanted to say.
I also exaggerated- which is not helpful- I do not mean that I think anyone is lying about any of their personal experiences. I do get annoyed with myself and others when they have isolated personal experiences and then make universal statements about something.

I greatly appreciate the experience and opinions of all- especially at times those that differ from mine- or at least those that differ from mine offer the most opportunity for me to learn something!

My post was simply an offensive and stupid rant- this is certainly not the place for such things! I will happily ask to have the post deleted if that would be appropriate.
I actually do not take this sort of thing personally- I am sorry if I gave that impression.
(I actually do not completely understand what came over me...I have been under a bit of extreme personal stress over the past few months and perhaps I am breaking a bit? My family is dealing with two crises and perhaps it is taking its toll. This is no excuse for treating others poorly of course!)

All I really want to say about this topic is that I personally appreciate the virtues of both NNNBC and 3-pin boots and bindings!

All we really have is our own experiences, perspectives, and opinions. We all need to be able to share them without being belittled. I am sorry if my choice of words poisoned this conversation.

I am actually not really very interested in debating whether NNNBC is "better" than NN.

Long love and live NNN and NN!

I wish you all a Happy Holidays with you and yours, and I hope you can forgive my ridiculous and offensive post.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.



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lowangle al
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Re: NNN-BC versus Pins: Just the facts

Post by lowangle al » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:03 pm

[quote="lilcliffy"]I wish to apologize for my most recent post.
Please forgive me.

It was not my intent to offend anyone.
I am afraid I can have a bit of potty mouth (growing up cutting wood for a living where foul language is part of the culture still comes out in me at times)-

Well I can tell you're not a cement mason LC, you didn't use the words cocksucker or motherfucker once. :D



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