of kicker skins and such...

Woodserson · Post by **Woodserson** » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:21 pm

So yesterday I used the 45mm Mohair, untrimmed. Good glide and grip for machine groomed granular climbing.

I agree that both skins would be useful with this ski, (I also have the 58s but I trimmed them too much woooopsie) depending in the planned use for the day. I think I would use the 58's on steep terrain hill climb stuff with loose snow.

The one thing though, is I'm not "fast" or "flying" even on the flats with what would be fast with a waxless base. This is not a reflection on Asnes, it's skiing with a kicker skin as far as I'm concerned. There's a bit of glide, but then the sudden stop. Which is all fine, but I'm unclear how anyone can be skiing with a kicker skin and feel like they are flying. The same goes for my Fischer EZ skins...

For the record, I'm on the 195cm Ingstad with the 45mm X-Skin mohair and I weight 155lbs.

Thoughts?

Oh and Fish, yes I removed the skins for the descent. I wouldn't go anywhere with them on.

bgregoire · Post by **bgregoire** » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:11 pm

Woodserson wrote: The one thing though, is I'm not "fast" or "flying" even on the flats with what would be fast with a waxless base. This is not a reflection on Asnes, it's skiing with a kicker skin as far as I'm concerned. There's a bit of glide, but then the sudden stop. Which is all fine, but I'm unclear how anyone can be skiing with a kicker skin and feel like they are flying. The same goes for my Fischer EZ skins...

For the record, I'm on the 195cm Ingstad with the 45mm X-Skin mohair and I weight 155lbs.

Thoughts?

Asnes skis aside, this is my precise experience with kicker skins! Fast is a very relative concept until it has been quantified. IMO The concept of speed on flats will also vary for peeps with alpine or XC backgrounds or our varied personal inclinations (contemplation vs competition, etc.). Perhaps we should organize a friendly TTalk race and get this all cleared up?

Personally, I like to ski fast on the flats. Nothing will beat a properly waxed ski. Even with wax if you wax too much outside the wax pocket of a cambered ski, you should also expect a great loss of speed and sudden stops. I have yet to try a scaled ski that I enjoy skiing in snow conditions where I could wax. I like kickers skins for hut to hut ski touring in my local hilly, densely forested environment but will only use them when necessary. The shorter and the narrower the better to reduce drag. But then, I found that even the Madshus Intelligrip kicker skins (38mm mohair) slow me down too much.

For XCD yoyoing, I prefer a generous BC waxing technique, something like LC is promoting. I will then zigzag my way up to prevent using full skins. If I'm on full-out tele gear and going for steeper terrain, then I will be using my full length skins.

So yeah, kickers will slow you down lots. Of course, you might try out the pink Asnes race kicker skins Johnny is fond of. But I have a hunch that even then, you might be somewhat dissapointed. Those new Asnes Mountain Race skis with integrated mohair skins might actually be the ticket, as the skins are surely "imbedded" in the race to reduce drag. I've hear so many good reviews of the newer classic XC skis with integrated skins.

Keep waxing my friend, save them bone skis for spring conditions & those kickers rolled up in your pocket to be use only as required. Flyyyyy! weeeeeeeeeee!

lilcliffy · Post by **lilcliffy** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:50 am

Kicker skins.

Have you tried a track-tuned Classic ski with a skin insert? My limited experience with that suggests that the only way to "fly" with a kicker skin on is if you are on stiff double-cambered ski with a truly effective wax/traction pocket- meaning that the pocket can only be effectively engaged when the ski is fully weighted on a compact snow surface.

The fastest kicker-skin ski that I have is my 210cm E99 Tour- it is the most cambered backcountry ski I have and there is still a noticeable pocket when I stand on them evenly weighted- though much shallower than my track skis. My 210cm Gamme 54 is significantly less cambered than my E99- though it is very stiff and responsive underfoot. My initial tests suggest that the Gamme 54 is every bit as fast- or perhaps even faster than the E99 with kick wax, but I am thinking that the E99 will be faster than the Gamme with a kicker skin...(I haven't skied the Gamme with kicker skin much yet).

All of the other backcountry skis I have are no more than camber-and-a-half and the camber is compressed with the ski half-weighted. The skin drags quite a bit on these skis. Though I do find that the extra resistance underfoot causes the skin to release more effectively on a camber-and-a-half ski than single cambered skis.

I did find a big difference in glide once I trimmed the skin to my heel.

Last week was a dream of Swix Green kick wax and soft snow over a dense frozen base.
On Thursday it warmed right up- to the point that the surface snow was very warm and wet and slippery- would have probably required klister...Even my waxless E-109/Eon were pretty slippery- better than Swix Blue- but still slippery. We ended up settling on E-109 Tour and Ingstads with kicker skins- it proved to be the best compromise between grip and glide. And as I mentioned the 45mm mohair skin on the Ingstad was the best of the bunch. And when the snow is warm wet and soft I find the mohair kicker skins glide very well actually- but otherwise, there is significant drag with skins on low-cambered skis.

When the snow is right for it grip/kick wax is by far the fastest- and when the snow is right waxless scales are very good- but I find there are times when neither is doing it (usually likely when klister would be the ticket) and the kicker skin is the best compromise.

lilcliffy · Post by **lilcliffy** » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:21 am

I am realizing that I need to take the same approach with kicker skins as I do with kick wax- err to the side of glide (i.e. do everyhting to avoid a softer wax).

I have been using my 45mm mohair skin on my Ingstad BC quite a bit lately.

We have had a lot of very icy refrozen snow in the last couple of weeks- and an ice storm on Saturday night turned our wonderous soft stuff into icy breakable crust with icy, granular stuff underneath- none of our waxless-scaled skis grip in it, and I wished to avoid klister temperature drop. It was -25C both yesterday morning and this morning!

Moving forward I am only going to use the wider 58mm skin when I must. The 45mm offers MUCH better glide on the 62mm Ingstad.

I am going out on my Gamme 54 today- with the 35mm mohair skin.

25+cm of soft stuff in our forecast for tomorrow- no rain/ice- and cold weather into next week!!!!!! Swix Green baby!

lilcliffy · Post by **lilcliffy** » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:40 am

Fjellsport clearly recommends the 45mm mohair for XC skiing and cold snow:
https://www.fjellsport.no/asnes-ingstad ... e-206.html

Woodserson · Post by **Woodserson** » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:02 pm

I've been using my 45mm Mohairs on the Ingstads, and the glide is OK depending on what the conditions are like. Unfortunately for me, that means machine groomed granular lately.

I can get, at times, "good" glide, but it comes with a sudden stop, so nothing I would say was fantastic. I get the grip I need to get up the ski hill with the granular though, and that's good, nothing with grip better. But I am definitely having a tough time finding that I can "fly" across the frozen granular on the flats. You think that would be the case, but no. There is some glide but it comes with that aforementioned sudden stop. Waxless would continue the glide in these conditions on the flat (but then I will herringbone the entire mountain). I am hesitant to trim the 45mm skins, especially since they'll do double duty on the Gamme 54's and also I need all the grip to get up the ski hill with the frozen granular as I'm herringboning anyway.

Today there was one bright spot-- fresh artificial snow (snow from fans, so light and fine grained, not the dense basemaking stuff) and since it was warming it was getting wet... perfect conditions for waxless if I was at a nordic place, and the mohairs did glide really nice.

I need some wet fresh real snow to further investigate.

Woodserson · Post by **Woodserson** » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:29 pm

Let me be more clear... The mohair glides well for a kicker skin and I am happy with them! However they are kicker skins and I'm not expecting glide that could be described as "flying" and so far my experience has agreed with this opinion.

lilcliffy · Post by **lilcliffy** » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:24 pm

Out on my 210cm Gamme 54 today with 35mm mohair Skin-Lock- cut to my heel.
Snow was:
1) broken out track.
2) trail-breaking through hard breakable crust with very cold, icy granular snow underneath.
3) snowmobile track.

I tested my 210cm E99 Tour with 35mm Easy-Skin back to back with the Gamme in my inner field before I headed out.
The Gamme out-performed the E99- despite the extra camber of the E99...I wm thinking it is due to both the longer gliding surface of the Gamme as well as the better glide of the pure mohair Skin-Lock...

I have to say I got amazing glide today on the Gamme + 35mm mohair Skin-Lock...enough that I had to seriously focus on my kick so that I didn't slip...

AND- on the downhill they glided freely- no sticking.

So- my current feeling is 35mm mohair for Gamme 54...
I am going to try the 35mm mohair with the Ingstad next...

snow-mark · Post by **snow-mark** » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:33 pm

I have never had satisfactory glide on my mohair kicker skins. I’m using Black Diamond kickers and they’re about the width of the skis I use them on (Madshus Epochs). So I use them only when absolutely necessary for a climb.

My wife just got a pair of “skin-skis” for use in prepared tracks. I was skeptical but the guy at the shop sold her on them. So far, so good. I’m surprised But the skin on these skis is very small, only a portion of the typical kick zone and only about half the width of the ski. The skin is also set into he base of the ski so it sticks out just a little.

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Cannatonic · Post by **Cannatonic** » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:21 pm

for me kicker skins do not glide well unless you trim them shorter - one day I continually trimmed 1" off at a time and when it gets to just behind your heel the ski finally starts to glide and behave similar to a fishscale ski.

I do like a good fischscale ski for warm weather but a short kicker skin gives you this option with wax skis which is a good thing too.

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