Mounting 75mm on modern AT/BC downhill skis

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fisheater

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Mounting 75mm on modern AT/BC downhill skis

Postby fisheater » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:16 am

Verskis, the reason stated by Asnes for recommending NTN was that there is no titanal top sheet on the Tindan. I believe it is just an Anses or possibly a Norwegian quirk. They recommended Rottefella NTN. I don't believe they even acknowledge Voile exists. I am mounting the ski 3 pin Hardwire. I would imagine that I would rip the 3 pin toe piece out of the plastic riser held by 3 screws, before I rip the 4 screws that hold the plastic riser plate out of the poplar ski.
Now I will say I have been doing some research on binding position. There seem to be some recommendations to mount NTN forward. It requires some thought to decipher. If you think about alpine skiing what you must consider, is that good alpine skiers press their shins into the front of the boot while maintaining a centered stance. The bottom line is that when carving there is always pressure on the front of the ski. From what I read, it is very easy to pressure the front of the ski in NTN gear. That being said, it cannot be the same as alpine gear, but by moving forward it more closely duplicates how alpine gear pressures the front of the ski.
Skiing in low leathers or T-4's I don't see how you pressure the front of the ski. It has been a while, but I don't remember my Hardwire binding exerting any pressure on the front of the ski. Now perhaps T-1's and Hammerheads will pressure the front of the ski. The most active set up I have been on was three buckle Garmont boots and Superloops. I was coming off Asolo Telebreeze boots, all I noticed was how AWESOME it was to be on a boot that flexed at the ball of the foot. I didn't notice if I was pressuring the front of the ski.
Bottom line is in light Telemark gear, including Excursion class boots, and XCD gear we do not pressure the ski tips as an alpine skier does. Therefore mounting is different. The "industry" is going NTN, so that is why bigger skis have recommended Telemark binding positions quoted towards NTN.
IF IT IS POSSIBLE COULD THIS BE MOVED TO A SEPARATE THREAD. Of course maybe I'm the only guy that cares about this.

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Re: Frankenbindings

Postby Smitty » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:22 am

fisheater wrote: Of course maybe I'm the only guy that cares about this.


This is definitely good discussion and information to have out there! I am sure many folks are interested in the NTN suggested mounting points and how you guys have translated that into 3-pin position for lighter gear. A new thread would be great.

This is exactly the type of information I am looking for as a guy getting into the sport and coming from the XC / wilderness background. I love XC skiing through the bush, and so far NNN-BC has met all of my needs for touring. But I want to learn how to tele and we are lucky enough to have a small county-operated hill where I get some practice. When I look at the current line of NNN-BC boots, there's nothing that I could feasibly use to drive an old set of alpine boards down a groomed run at beginner skills with any chance of learning. On the other end of the spectrum, it would be a little ridiculous for a guy like me to go drop thousands on 4-buckle NTN boots and bindings to shred my super chill 400' small town hill and lap my local coulee's. This is where it seems that the Excursion / T4 class would shine - more control downhill, can handle groomers, but can also be used for long trekking / winter camping type adventures. And this class is missing from both NNN-BC and NTN.

There really is no other resource for folks like me to find out how/where/when to mount a 3-Pin Cable, Hardwire, etc on modern downhill oriented skis. And many other questions of this nature. Thanks Bob!

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Re: Mounting 75mm on modern AT/BC downhill skis

Postby lilcliffy » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:16 am

I am also very keen to learn how you make out with mounting a 75mm binding on your new Tindan.

Voile is clearly still committed to supporting 75mm Telemark bindings on their skis.
What are Voile's recommendations for mounting 75mm Telemark bindings?
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
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Re: Mounting 75mm on modern AT/BC downhill skis

Postby Woodserson » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:17 pm

lilcliffy wrote:I am also very keen to learn how you make out with mounting a 75mm binding on your new Tindan.

Voile is clearly still committed to supporting 75mm Telemark bindings on their skis.
What are Voile's recommendations for mounting 75mm Telemark bindings?


Voile recommends that you calculate the Boot Sole Center of your boot and then mount to their recommendations as is described in this chart: https://www.voile.com/sbc

This basically puts everyone on the same page.

My personal opinion is that I usually mount -2cm when I'm skiing sub-180cm skis because I tend to drive the back ski tip into powder and go over the handlebars. This sweet spot was discovered through very thorough testing and remounting skis many times. Caveats: I'm 6'2" and this is somewhat a smaller length for me, but I ski these shorter skis because I am using the T4 on everything and a lightweight. I also have (and this is important) 30.5/31 mondo boots (average US male is a mondo 28), and if I mount a relatively small ski that's 178cm long it puts my BOF very forward than compared to average (mondo 28), which on the back ski drops the tip. If I was in bigger boots and skiing longer skis, like in the high-180's I would follow Voile's recommendation to the mm.

As it stands my Objectives are actually only mounted -5mm boot center to boot center recommendation and that works really well.

I think calculated telemark boot center (Scarpa has a line on the boot, btw) to alpine boot center works great, and you can adjust for individual wants, needs, and style from there. You want more turniness? Forward. You want do lower the possibility of catching a tip and understand the turniness will be affected? Back.

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Re: Mounting 75mm on modern AT/BC downhill skis

Postby fisheater » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:46 pm

Woods, thank you for all the help. I have done a little looking around, it seems 2 cm back was a little more common in the past. It seems now most guys are going boot center to boot center. The Tindan has 50 cm of rocker measured as a chord from the tip, and there is only 3cm of tail rocker. So it must be a bit different than the Objective.
Switching gears, I do believe that Voile makes Telemark bindings and thinks Telemark as in xcD. I am a North American, I understand North American xcD. Asnes is a little different, first they don't make bindings. I believe when they say 75 mm, they mean Super Telemark. I don't believe Rottefella makes cable bindings any longer. They make New Telemark Norm bindings. I don't believe Asnes looks at what is made in North America. I think they are a little Norwegian centric when they think about such things.
So getting back to the subject line of mounting 75 mm on modern rockered AT/BC skis I think I am coming up with more of a "it depends". I believe Voile has North American backcountry Telemark in it's DNA. I'm not so sure Asnes is wired that way, but I believe their skis come from thoroughly Nordic roots.Perhaps many other skis are much more alpine in their roots.
So I guess the bottom line is the general recommendations are pins up to 1.5 cm in front of boot center/ boot center, to boot center/boot center, to 2cm behind boot center to boot center.
I frankly am just not seeing the general recommendations. I can verify Johnny's measurement of 50 cm of rocker on the Tindan, so I will assume his measurement of 33 cm of rocker on the Objective is correct. I would say 17 cm is significant, but there is only a couple mm difference in suggested mounting points. I reached out to Woods via PM, and he "talked me down" from my -3cm pin line. I was leaning towards -2 cm, but decide -2.5 cm made more sense. I ski the Tindan's little sister the FT. Now my FT is 188 cm, and the Tindan is 176 cm. The flex of the two skis is the same, except the Tindan is stiffer. At 62 mm underfoot the FT is quick edge to edge. It is mounted balance point. I was all set to mount the Tindan -2.5. I will need to think about it more. I did another side by side with the FT, I am seriously thinking about mounting the Tindan at BP. BP is -3.7 cm from boot center/ boot center. It puts BOF right on the narrow spot of the skis waist. When I set the boot, on the Tindan on BP, and place the other boot in the binding on the FT it looks right.
I probably won't drill until Sunday, who knows I could change my mind again. I really have never thought too much about mounting a ski. I put the binding in the recommended location and drill. This time it's different, from the very start I have thought this mount needs to be -3 cm. I was going to compromise at -2.5 cm. I guess if I go big and screw up big, my next set of holes will be far enough apart. I will post, probably when I mount, for sure after I make some turns.

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Re: Mounting 75mm on modern AT/BC downhill skis

Postby Mountain Mitch » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:57 pm

You are thinking it through way more than I ever have. I just follow Voile recommended mounting point and it’s always worked for mr (except when I screw up). :evil:
FWIW you suggest an issue with getting weight forward for the turn and compare it to alpine skiing. In my analysis of telemark turns, the concept is that the two skis become one long ski as you initiate and go through the turn. Your weight is transferred forward by the fact you move the outside ski ahead and, as you do that, you genuflect. That shifts most of your weight to the outside ski and your instep may assist in turning the unweighted inside ski (or not with more modern shaped skis). All of this is mechanically assisted by the cable which pulls the unweighted ski up slightly. So if you view the skis as a unit you may see the forward weight transfer more easily if that helps.

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Re: Mounting 75mm on modern AT/BC downhill skis

Postby Woodserson » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:11 pm

fisheater wrote:it seems 2 cm back was a little more common in the past. It seems now most guys are going boot center to boot center.



My -2cm is just because of my large feet and I'm trying to mimic size 10/mondo 28 feet. If I had average feet I'd go with boot-center to boot-center.

I am seriously thinking about mounting the Tindan at BP. BP is -3.7 cm from boot center/ boot center. It puts BOF right on the narrow spot of the skis waist. When I set the boot, on the Tindan on BP, and place the other boot in the binding on the FT it looks right.


BOF on the narrowest part means that you boot center will be aft of this point, aft of the sidecut. It will feel wonky if you parallel turn the ski, and it will favor the back/dropped-knee ski-- which while we SHOULD apply 50% of our pressure to, let's be honest, averaged out over time I bet we still pressure the downhill ski more than 50%-- and in this mounting scenario you'll be behind the sidecut, and the forward/downhill ski could be squirrelly. I would find a compromise, honestly. The Tindan is a downhill ski, not a quasi-XC ski like the FT... IMO. Of course you're the guy that has them both there and I've never seen them in the flesh.

Personal decision about something that only you will feel. You must see it, feel it, and then do it!

Let the WUWU talk to you!

Let us know. I share your stress


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