Permanent integrated Skin in BC skis Sporten Explorer Skin

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bgregoire
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Re: Permanent integrated Skin in BC skis Sporten Explorer Skin

Post by bgregoire » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:42 pm

Stefan,

lots of questions! Can't answer them all, but lets try a few.
2. When standing on one food (Glide simulation) there is no space under the skin, skin is with contact with the floor. I know that this is bad, bud retailed told me that floor is not evenly flat. They did not had any even surface...so I dont know whether skis is too soft and one should go for longer ski (185 cm for 70 - 85 kg) or trust company size chart
That's not bad, that GOOD. You need the skin to hit the ground when one ski is compressed by the full weight of your body. How else are you going to kick?

Also, keep in mind the backcountry is never even close to being as flat and as solid a floor or marble table. Don't worry to much about the fine details with this type of test when considering backcountry skis.

I'm tempted to say consider full weight, including backpack when choosing a ski, that is if don't usually ski naked of course.

I'm surprised the people at the store could not answer these questions? are they any good? if not, try another specialized store if you can!

About boot size, you definitely want a bigger boot. You don't want toes touching the end of your boot. Make sure you try the boots with the socks you plan on wearing.

By the way, I highly suggest invested in a leather boot like the Alpina Wyoming or Alaska instead. They will last a lot longer....

How is the snow is Slovenia?
I live for the Telemark arc....The feeeeeeel.....I ski miles to get to a place where there is guaranteed snow to do the deal....TM

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Skirciak Pirciak
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Re: Permanent integrated Skin in BC skis Sporten Explorer Skin

Post by Skirciak Pirciak » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:27 am

Hi Bgregoire
Yes, lot of questions, sorry, but thanks for answers : )

Do you suggest to get longer skis? Assuming my boots will add 2kg, clothes 2kg, bag with water, snack 3 kg.

My height: 172 cm (5.64 feet)
My weight: 66 kg (145,5 lbs)

Sporten's official size chart is:
LENGTH (CM) PROFILE SKIER’S WEIGHT KG/(lbs)
175 64–52–60 60–75 (133 - 165)
185 64–52–60 70–85 (154 - 187)

Regarding that test, I ment scenario, where you standing on one foot (front foot during the glide) as in video
(3m 55s)

I don't know what conditions are in Slovenia, but here in Slovakia, conditions are great : ) Meters of snow everywhere

Video for better picture


https://www.slovakia.com/photos/photogr ... aly-03.jpg

Thank you again &
Have a nice day
Sincerely Stefan

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lilcliffy
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Re: Permanent integrated Skin in BC skis Sporten Explorer Skin

Post by lilcliffy » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:07 pm

Hello Stefan,
I very much enjoyed that video you posted.
Thank you for sharing it!
I love snow. I love winter. I love skiing.
Gareth
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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lilcliffy
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Re: Permanent integrated Skin in BC skis Sporten Explorer Skin

Post by lilcliffy » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:41 pm

Skirciak Pirciak wrote:Hi Guys
Many thanks for advices again
I had chance to test flex of skis in the shop
1. When standing on both skis evenly, skis have room under the binding so embedded skin is not in contact with the floor
2. When standing on one food (Glide simulation) there is no space under the skin, skin is with contact with the floor. I know that this is bad, bud retailed told me that floor is not evenly flat. They did not had any even surface...so I dont know whether skis is too soft and one should go for longer ski (185 cm for 70 - 85 kg) or trust company size chart
(Please forgive me Stefan if I am rambling on about stuff you already know! I am a teacher and have learned not to assume anything about a "beginner"'s knowledge...)

What you are describing is a true double-cambered ski that has an effective wax pocket. The intended purpose of true double camber is that the wax/traction pocket can only be fully engaged with the ski fully weighted. An effective wax pocket requires an effective "kick", otherwise, there will be no grip and the skier will slip and slide all over the place. You cannot simply shuffle along on a "properly"-sized double-camber ski- you need to move at a full diagonal stride to fully engage the traction zone of the ski underfoot.

Truly double-cambered skis intended for the groomed track are pretty straight forward: camber and stiffness ranging from pretty mellow "touring" skis that do not require expert technique- to very stiff skis that require and expert technique and a powerful kick. In other words- Classic XC racing ski do not go slow- they are designed to fly!

Double-cambered backcountry touring skis are not so straight forward, because if they are too stiff, it is impossible to effectively engage the wax/traction pocket on soft snow- if the ski is too stiff one simply drives the tip/tail into the snow, without effectively engaging the traction zone.

And the added challenge is that a hard floor does not simulate XC skiing on soft backcountry snow!

I have no experience with the Sporten skis, but I can tell you that skis like the E99 and Gamme 54 are truly double-cambered skis that are finely tuned to be able to grip on soft snow. Does the shop have an E99 Xtralite in stock for you to make a comparison?

As far as the effective pocket on the skis you tested- whether this is "good" or "bad" depends on the ski, the snow conditions and the terrain.

The ski-
If that ski is very stiff it will be great on dense on dense-consolidated snow, but poor on soft snow.

The snow-
What's the snow like that you want to ski on?

The terrain-
Purely cross-country skiing? Flat, gentle terrain? Hilly, terrain with moderate to steep slopes? Or mountainous terrain?
A double-cambered ski with an effective wax/traction pocket is for XC skiing.
That effective traction pocket makes it impossible to evenly-pressure the ski when climbing and downhill skiing.

As a note- a ski with a camber-and-half profile does not have a true double-cambered traction pocket- a camber-and-a-half ski can be evenly pressured- but, unlike a single cambered ski ("Alpine" camber), a camber-and-a-half ski still has a wax/traction pocket that releases from the snow when XC skiing.

I do take my E99 and Gamme 54 into hilly-steep terrain, but I focus on trails, abandoned roads and gentle contours- focusing on covering distance.

If I want to ski steep terrain I take my less cambered skis- camber-and-a-half if I want to cover long distance (e.g. E109/Ingstad)- single camber if I am purely touring for turns (e.g. Annum/Kom/Storetind).

So- please give us some more details. What terrain and snow conditions are you planning on skiing on? (Please forgive me if you have already explained this and I missed it!)

I read on the ski maker sporten webside that
1. Beginners should go for ski based on the company size chart
This confirms my impression of manufactures recommended sizing on a LOT of skis these days. It is excellent to have this level of classification. Most manufacturers have a weight recommendation, but it is unclear what the target skier is with that recommendation.
2. Intermediates should go for 20-30 % stiffer ski (does it mean body weight + 20-30%?)
Although this makes sense- it only works if one has a range of skis to choose from that have varying degrees of stiffness between pairs. Back in the day, skiers went to the shop and ideally picked out a pair of skis based on their weight, skills, and intended use. Did you test a number of different skis? Are the Sporten skis highly variable in stiffness?
3. Experts should go one step stiffer, longer ski
Again this is a classic cross-country ski guideline.

As a comparison- my experience suggests that current Fischer BC-XC skis are incredibly consistent in their camber-flex. I was in a shop recently with my friend helping him buy an E99 Tour- there were several 200cm to choose from and they were all seemingly identical in their camber and flex.

Reports on this site suggest that there is significant variability in flex between pairs of Asnes skis...This is a good thing if you can test/flex multiple pairs before selecting one to buy- a bit of a serious gamble of you are ordering them by mail!
What is not clear for me is how weight in ski size table is defined
Example: 175 cm ski is recommended for person with weight 60 - 75 kg (132 - 165 lbs)
Question: Is it weight of the body (net weight) or should I count the weight of the boots, clothes + maybe some small water bag?
Yes- all weight, including what you are carrying.
Also, I bought Alpina Wyoming boots, what are little bit too tight
WIll they stretch or should I buy half size bigger? Toe is little bit touching the front of the boot

Thank you
SIncerely Stefan
Are you going to be skiing in very cold temperatures? Even if the boot stretches to fit- those boots might not be warm enough in very cold weather.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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Skirciak Pirciak
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Re: Permanent integrated Skin in BC skis Sporten Explorer Skin

Post by Skirciak Pirciak » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:01 pm

Hello Lilcliffy
Thank you for your extensive message : )

1. When I was saying "standing on one foot" I was reffering to this situation
glide.jpg
Where you also need some space between the ski/skin and ground to be able to perform glide
I have no experience with the Sporten skis, but I can tell you that skis like the E99 and Gamme 54 are truly double-cambered skis that are finely tuned to be able to grip on soft snow. Does the shop have an E99 Xtralite in stock for you to make a comparison?
I saw Fischer spider 62 skis in the shop only...
The snow-
What's the snow like that you want to ski on?
I would like to ride soft snow, but i plan to own just one pair of skis so I will take them out regardless the conditions
The terrain-
Purely cross-country skiing? Flat, gentle terrain? Hilly, terrain with moderate to steep slopes? Or mountainous terrain?
I would like to ride mostly ungroomed cross-country terrain with flats and moderate slops
Did you test a number of different skis? Are the Sporten skis highly variable in stiffness?
No i did not due to limited market here.
There is just one stiffness option for the lenght in sporten skis line

The final question is: Will I do better with 175 cm skis or 185 cm skis? ( I already bought 175 version, but I can exchange them)

My height: 172 cm (5.64 feet)
My weight: 66 kg (145,5 lbs) (morning naked weight :) )

Sporten's official size chart is:
LENGTH (CM) PROFILE SKIER’S WEIGHT KG/(lbs)
175 64–52–60 60–75 (133 - 165)
185 64–52–60 70–85 (154 - 187)

PS1: Aplina skis are made by Sporten in Czech Republic and some models are exactly the same ski. For example Sporten Ranger is Alpina discovery 68. Which is strange as there are different weight ranges for recomended skis length for Sporten and different for Alpina)

PS2: Asnes skis are also made in Czech Republic, so I assume with certainty that Asnes skis are made in same factory as Sporten and Alpina. From Asnes catalogue I can see that Asnes BC skis with same dimensions are way longer than Sporten and Alpina skis

Thanks
BR Stefan

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Re: Permanent integrated Skin in BC skis Sporten Explorer Skin

Post by bgregoire » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:22 pm

Stefan,

I believe some of us, included myself are not too comfortable suggesting a length because 1) we don't know those skis personally and 2) this is your very first pair.

If these skis are mostly for flat touring, if I were you, I'd be seriously tempted by the 185. That is a really short ski for its width.....

About the "standing on one foot", its definitely time for you to get out there (175 or 185!) and ski! Surely, soon enough, you will understand why the camber needs to be fully flattened out by the single foot kick in order to propulse yourself forward.

I'm curious, are you certain there is only one ski making shop in the Czech republic?

Be well
I live for the Telemark arc....The feeeeeeel.....I ski miles to get to a place where there is guaranteed snow to do the deal....TM

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Re: Permanent integrated Skin in BC skis Sporten Explorer Skin

Post by bem » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:50 pm

Hi,
I read a funny comment in last issue in a Swedish "Outdoor Magazine" by one of my country's top skiers in the 1970th Sven-Ake Lundback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sven-Åke_Lundbäck
when a skier asked him what he thought about skiing "Nordenskioldsloppet"
https://www.nordenskioldsloppet.se/en that is a 220 km long ski race here in Sweden on skis with integrated skin. His answer was:
"Do You want an honest answer? It will be like you ski 440 km instead of 220 km. Good luck."

This is of course an extreme situtaion but should contain a bit of thruth how the glide performance can be on skis with integrated skin. I'm sure it will be better and better performance in future, but if You want better speed, wax skis is still the best option. But for just normal recreational skiing I suppose skis with skintec will work just fine. I have never used any such skis.

/Bo

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Re: Permanent integrated Skin in BC skis Sporten Explorer Skin

Post by lilcliffy » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:01 pm

Skirciak Pirciak wrote: 1. When I was saying "standing on one foot" I was reffering to this situation

glide.jpg

Where you also need some space between the ski/skin and ground to be able to perform glide
Ok- now I understand your concern. This is relevant for performance-oriented Classic technique on a groomed track- or at least exclusively dense-consolidated snow. I firmly suggest that a ski with that much camber-stiffness- that requires an effective "kick" technique to engage the traction zone- will be all but useless on soft, fresh snow. For example- even my mellowest track ski- 203cm Atomic Motion 46- are waaaay too stiff and cambered for touring on soft snow! And for a beginner- I would not recommend that much camber and stiffness for a beginner, even on a groomed track. If one has never skied before, one needs to put many kilometers on softer skis- learning how to balance and stride on one leg at a time- long before learning how to make a powerful and precise Classic "kick".

In my opinion- for soft snow one certainly needs to be able to completely compress the traction pocket when the ski is fully weighted. An even then- a BC ski with a truly effective double-camber may be great on gentle terrain, but it can be quite a wild ride on steep terrain because one cannot evenly pressure both skis...

My advice- if there is an effective traction pocket underfoot- when the skis are evenly weighted on a hard surface- I would not go longer if you want to use them on backcountry snow.
The final question is: Will I do better with 175 cm skis or 185 cm skis? ( I already bought 175 version, but I can exchange them)
Was it the 175cm ski that had an open wax pocket when evenly weighted?!
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Skirciak Pirciak
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Re: Permanent integrated Skin in BC skis Sporten Explorer Skin

Post by Skirciak Pirciak » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:37 am

Hi Guys
I would like to thank you again for sharing your experiences and advices

Regarding your questions:
I'm curious, are you certain there is only one ski making shop in the Czech republic?
Hi Bgregoire, I am not certain just assuming that
Was it the 175cm ski that had an open wax pocket when evenly weighted?!
Hi Lilcliffy, Skis had an open wax pocket, when I stood on them, but I was wearing just t shirt, jeans and sneakers
I will check that again in my ski gear once, I will return from the business trip,

Have a great sunday Gentlemen

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lilcliffy
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Re: Permanent integrated Skin in BC skis Sporten Explorer Skin

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:10 am

WOW!
An effective double-cambered wax/traction pocket at 145lbs!!!
That is one stiff, cambered backcountry touring ski!!!!

For comparison- I weigh 185lbs and my 210cm Asnes Gamme 54 barely has an open pocket underfoot when I stand on them evenly...

You are very welcome Stefan- I hope that I am helping- rather than making it more complicated!!

Gareth
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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