When to Drop a Knee

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RacehorseStu
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Re: When to Drop a Knee

Post by RacehorseStu » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:09 pm

Andy M wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:13 am
But, in the end, I telemark more because it is fun and the feeling that the movement gives, e.g., like a dance, than because of any technical advantage it may give.
Lo-Fi wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:43 pm
Telemark equipment and the telemark turn allow for complete skiing: Near perfect continuity between flats, uphills and downhills.
Tom M wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:14 pm
Sometimes the skiing is so great and scenery so beautiful its a good idea to genuflect out of respect. Alpine skiers can only bow.
You're all poets.

Telemark skiing is the fullest striding and gliding and rising and falling experience I can imagine. The undulation, the burning, the DANCE, the closeness to the snow are all available in ways that nordic or downhill skiing don't have access to. And it's honest, it's slow-paced, it tells you to listen and feel and learn something each time you head out. It's also badass. It goes everywhere. It can be whatever you want.

Mr. and Mrs. R. Cakes of Keokuk, Iowa, said of skiing (before there was any distinction between cross-country and nordic backcountry): "Our principal interest in cross country skiing is that it is morally clean and healthful, and of course the snow is very sanitary"
I think that's pretty fun.

Hal Painter writes: “When I feel the need to rationalize, I rely lightly on the effervescent image that flies into my head from time to time: that of Zenmaster Suzuki Roshi laughing like hell in the Zendo at Tassajar Hot Springs as he explained to a gathering of monks and laymen such as myself. ‘cucumber is cucumber,’ he said, ‘and eggplant is eggplant.’ He laughed. This, he said, is the Zen way of getting along in the world. He laughed some more. I found myself laughing too. From the inside out. And so now I confide to myself, cross-country ski is cross-country ski, what trucking around in the snow does for my head is what trucking around in the snow does for my head – and if that’s cucumber, I’m laughing as I zig-zag through the cucumber patch.”
Maybe that will help.
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Woodserson
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Re: When to Drop a Knee

Post by Woodserson » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:22 am

Re: thigh burning....

One thing to remember is to use your core and your glutes when you're dropping a knee. Keep your core tight, squeeze your butt, especially on the up! The glutes are big muscles that often need to be consciously activated if you are not familiar to proper lunging technique, and they will take a big load off your quads.

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Re: When to Drop a Knee

Post by lowangle al » Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:21 pm

^^^^Chances are, if you're not feeling it in your glutes, you're not centered and need to get your weight back.

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Re: When to Drop a Knee

Post by Andinista » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:45 pm

FourthCoast wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:21 am
Is there any clear technical advantage to a tele turn? I think it is fun and it is neat to have one more way to play around on the hill so I am going to keep it up. I am wondering if there is more that I am missing?
No technical advantage. It takes considerable time and effort to learn a good technique and achieve those “advantages” that you will hear, and ski almost as stable but not as fast as on alpine.
It’s just about the fun, specially in powder. Similar levels of enjoyment would require much higher speeds on alpine, that’s a way to explain it. So now you have more room to keep pushing the limit.

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Re: When to Drop a Knee

Post by Andinista » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:41 pm

FourthCoast wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:21 am
I am surprised by how much I use my quads in every single tele turn compared to alpine turns.
Three factors here

- Technique: as it probably happened when you learned alpine, you did burn more muscles at the beginning. When you get to ski more relaxed and use more the skeleton than the muscles, it gets easier. That said, quads are still more used than in alpine and it may take long to get to an acceptable level of effort.

- NTN or active bindings make a lot of difference, the leather and pins route is harder on the quads.

- Different set (o use) of muscles: When I ski alpine (with locked heel, not just alpine turn on tele), which I do very occasionally since many years, I feel my quads, as it happens when you make a new exercise.

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BCwannaB
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Re: When to Drop a Knee

Post by BCwannaB » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:55 pm

The difference is Telemark is not only a sport its an art. Since i suck at drawing, it makes me feel accomplished!
:D

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Re: When to Drop a Knee

Post by eraymond » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:46 am

Andinista wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:45 pm
No technical advantage. It takes considerable time and effort to learn a good technique and achieve those “advantages” that you will hear, and ski almost as stable but not as fast as on alpine.
It’s just about the fun, specially in powder. Similar levels of enjoyment would require much higher speeds on alpine, that’s a way to explain it. So now you have more room to keep pushing the limit.
Telemark has a huge advantage when carrying a large pack in terms of fore aft stability.

It's often easy to handle sticky spring snow by "walking" into the next tele turn.

Someone said landing in tele was better for them, but all I get from that is tip dive. Perhaps the trick is landing on hard pack like ski jumpers, but that's not my thing.

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Re: When to Drop a Knee

Post by BackInMyDay » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:22 am

To the original question, I would say, "whenever you feel like it."

What I am doing is "freeheel skiing." Sometimes I carve big fast alpine racer arcs, sometimes I sideslip through tight moves, sometimes I stem a turn, and sometimes I telemark. Also, there's the revers-a-mark, the monomark, and a pedal-hop on rare occasion, along with a few I haven't thought about yet this year.

Point is.... (wait, what was the question??... oh yeah, right...). Drop a knee when you feel like it. Tele turns are beautiful, but not always the right tool for the job. Since you're starting out, it's great to tele turn to exhaustion (and maybe just a bit beyond, if that's your kind of suffering). But now, after 20 years of tele'ing, I ski a lot of parallel turns... probably 80% plus when I'm riding lifts. For me, the tele turn is a soft-snow turn, and while I put in my 10,000 hours of tele'ing on everything, now that I've got my merit badge, I don't feel like I have to do it any more than I want to.

I think it's a stretch to say there's mechanical advantage in a tele turn, but one advantage I found in the early years is being able to bring my rear ski back, and effectively shift my center of gravity back, or up the hill. This can come in handy in bumps or tight trees. Instead of weighting down and forward, effectively landing on the front ski, weight down into your rear ski, and initiate the turn from there. It's almost like a mini reverse time warp.... almost.

Hope that helps.
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Re: When to Drop a Knee

Post by lilcliffy » Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:37 am

BackInMyDay wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:22 am
Tele turns are beautiful, but not always the right tool for the job.
This.
I think it's a stretch to say there's mechanical advantage in a tele turn, but one advantage I found in the early years is being able to bring my rear ski back, and effectively shift my center of gravity back, or up the hill. This can come in handy in bumps or tight trees. Instead of weighting down and forward, effectively landing on the front ski, weight down into your rear ski, and initiate the turn from there. It's almost like a mini reverse time warp.... almost.
Very best.

I love the telemark turn- as you say it truly is a beautiful and wonderful feeling.

It is one of a myriad of turning techniques that I use. Even my approach to the telemark turn varies depending on snow, terain and the skis and boots I am using.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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Re: When to Drop a Knee

Post by Andinista » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:03 am

BackInMyDay wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:22 am
For me, the tele turn is a soft-snow turn
+1
That’s where it shines
It’s like the feeling when you release an AT binding heel after a day of alpine skiing, or remove an alpine boot. But all day long. But on hard pack big part of that softness is lost.

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