Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

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Johnny
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Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by Johnny » Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:52 am

People always laughed at me. No matter what I say or do, it has always been that way. Being the 1% minority with different views on the world is not always easy. I still remember how people made fun of me when I first talked about having NTN leather shoes. Ok, that was funny, floppy shoes in a 4lbs binding. It was actually for fun. So funny that Bri7 started to work on a 75mm to NTN adapter so we could ski with our leathers on NTN. For fun of course. 

Then the whole TTS thing started to get more serious. Nobody ever thought that tech toes would once be used for telemark. It had nothing to do with tele. But somehow the creativity of a few tele fanatics changed the scene. Telemark Tech systems (notice the "s" in systems) became the cool toys to own. I honestly couldn't care less, I stopped using cables a long time ago, whether it's NTN, NN or NNN-BC. So I never got into TTS. But TTS started me to dream about having tech inserts on leather boots. And this time, I was dead serious. Well, people made fun of me once again.  I tried to find a way to modify my Alaskas and retrofit them with tech inserts. But back then, inserts were just impossible to find for a Canadian clown to purchase. 

What is the point of all that Johnny? Well, back in the days, if you wanted to be cool, you just had to mention Glen Plake or Scot Schmidt in a conversation. If you were into music, you just had to mention The Dead Milkmen or Camper Van Beethoven to sound cool. Compuserve and Fidonet were very hip to mention on bulletin board systems. Things have changed, namedropping has become a trending thing to do, a boring way to spice up the art of conversation. Lately, words like "Elon Musk" or "Cryptocurrency" became trendy...(Yucky!) But if you are a telemark skier, the cool thing to do nowadays is to mention "Pierre Mouyade". The best ranked name to mention in a post about skiing. I am the most uncool guy you can possibly think of, and I absolutely hate name-dropping. But here I am, I have to drop the name "Pierre Mouyade" here... 

So there is this guy, Pierre Mouyade, the mastermind behind the Meidjo binding (Hi Pierre! How are you?)... This guy, who is also a creative one percenter and who I respect A LOT, is apparently trying to change the game and create a third (or fourth) telly norm, the Telemark Tech Norm (TTN). He offers a very nice solution... to a problem that does not exist. Well, not yet, except for a small defective batch of Crispi boots. Ok, by looking at the table below, you can see that there is no standard for tech toes. So his idea is totally legitimate. The thing is, his idea would imply Rottefella to cannibalize their own NTN bindings, something that is obviously not going to happen after the millions $$$ that have been injected by the tele industry giant into this for the last 15 years. It would also mean that every boot manufacturers would have to start making new molds for yet another new system. I doubt this is not going to happen. But Pierre's idea is not bad at all: I think the idea is to push things around, no matter the direction. After all, he is the one responsible for the biggest changes in the telemark scene in the last 5 years. But really, do we really need a new norm, do we really need to change everything once again? Discussing the matter on a forum is useless, since everybody knows there are as many different opinions as there are so-called tele experts. (Especially in California...)

1002289-75-2.jpg

Yes, I must admit that having a standard for dynafit inserts placement is A MUST for telemark. Or else we will end up having a different boot model for each single binding out there. Saving weight and space is *always* a good idea, no matter the outcome. And yes indeed, something new and open source would be the best. In my opinion, this standard must be set from the Meidjo design itself, since it's the best and most advanced 2-pin telly binding, and obviously the future of the NTN branch of free-heel skiing...

On the other side, you have Rottefella, the beast. You might call it the beast, they are the ones who invented the rat-trap telemark bindings. They also created NNN-BC, and they are the ones who spent millions to bring NTN to the world. Well, the beast is trying to reinvent XCD with yet another norm on his side too. They are hiring engineers and designers to try to come up with something new, the Rottefella Back Country Binding System. Another norm coincidentally deeply "inspired" (copied) from the tech world. It's totally legitimate for Rotte to do so, since 22Designs and the M Equipment are currently stealing the 2-pin market. But while it's legit, I don't think it's the right way to go. Come on Rotte, the solution is so easy! You don't need to do any of this! (What, you think your opinion matters Johnny?!? How arrogant! You're a clown and everybody knows...)
Rottefella Back Country binding system3-2.jpg
Hey, what if everything was already perfect and nobody knew, nobody could see?. What if the Meidjo binding was really the future? No, this has nothing to do with the fact that you can see a M Equipment banner on the site. But all of this got me thinking of my old ideas when people made fun of me. Why a new norm when we could have NTN-BC? It was inconceivable 10 years ago before the advent of 460g NTN bindings, but I think the perfect XCD binding already exists. And we're all too blind to see... (Except for Rottefella who probably tought about it, but refused to give in... Developping their own system to bypass The M instead...)

Seriously, stop laughing and think about it. Ok, it's a fact, the vast majority of XCD skiers are still using the 30yo Voile 3-pin cable binding and its 75mm norm, remnants of the 1920's. I have no problem with nostalgia or being stuck in the past. Not at all, I am a nostalgic myself. But let's just stop this nonsense for one second. I'm asking you, stop laughing and imagine your favorite pair of boots with NTN rubber soles and tech inserts. The Alaska NTN-BC or the Alfa Guard NTN-BC. The same, best XCD boots in the world, soft yet supportive, comfy and super light. Imagine them the way you love them the most, but this time with NTN rubber soles instead of duckbills. And now imagine the perfect binding that would do E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G:

- Super active springs for the best control ever (Or super soft if wanted)
- True step-in functionality
- Adjustable and independent release system for maximum safety
- Tech toes for the best ever lateral edge control
- Free pivot touring mode
- Integrated brakes for inbound skiing

Can you imagine this, one binding that does it all? PERFECT cross-country skiing, and PERFECT downhill control. Absolutely no compromise. The holy grail is already here, and it's called the Meidjo 2.1. And it does all of this. Yep, ALL of this, and LIGHTER THAN A PAIR OF VOILE 3P TRAVERSE!!! With NTN-BC soles and boots, who would be dumb enough to ski Voile's old 3pc when there is a lighter binding with ALL the holy grail characteristics???

NTN-BC Alpina Alaska boots 75 BC NTN Telemark Backcountry .jpg
Why bother with a fourth or fifth norm? The future of XCD is already here. No need for new norms, new molds or new bindings. All we need is Rottefella to start selling NTN rubber soles with inserts to boot makers. Please Rottefella, please. You would keep the monopoly, keep the patents and make more money without changing a thing... While growing and pushing the market and helping Pierre Mouyade and other manufacturers as well... The M Equipment would sell tons of Meidjos, and Rotte would sell tons of soles and probably create their own 2-pin NTN-compliant binding and keep the NTN norm alive for decades.

"Imagine a binding system for all backcountry activities, with no compromises. Imagine a boot with a sole so stable, you can ride downhill with confidence." Come on Rottefella! It's already here! It's called a Meidjo binding with NTN leather shoes... No need to spend millions on research! Just use your brain, and common sense!
ALFA GUARD ADVANCE NTN-BC.jpg
Really, the Meidjo is just the most brilliant piece of telemark gear ever. While it's true that it's the future of telemark, I believe this could also be the future of XCD. Please Rottefella, I know this is hard to take... Creative geniuses pushed your invention further than you did. But the telemark world needs NTN-BC soles... With standardized tech toes if you want, as long as it's backward compatible with NTN.

405g Voile 3-Pin Cable (No holy grail characteristics)
444g Rottefella NNN-BC
460g M Equipment Meidjo (ALL the holy grail characteristics)
500g Voile 3-Pin Cable Traverse
530g Rottefella Super Telemark with Cable
645g Voile 3-Pin Hardwire
726g Voile Switchback X2


And with a new XCD-optimized Meidjo, we could even make it a lot lighter than this, making it ridiculously lighter than the most primal cable binding. NTN-BC guys... I'm telling you... NTN-BC...

Together we stand, divided we fall... We fall... We fall... We fall... 
/...\ Peace, Love, Telemark and Tofu /...\
"And if you like to risk your neck, we'll boom down Sutton in old Quebec..."

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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by treehugger » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:47 pm

Would a Tech toe and leathers provide the lightweight performance of nnnbc but with enough control for wider skis? Who wouldn't want that!!! Would a lighter touring version without springs in the plate make sense? How much control is there when just using tech toe touring?

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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by bgregoire » Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:53 pm

treehugger wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:47 pm
Would a Tech toe and leathers provide the lightweight performance of nnnbc but with enough control for wider skis? Who wouldn't want that!!! Would a lighter touring version without springs in the plate make sense? How much control is there when just using tech toe touring?
The spring and plate bit is central to this TELEMARK binding. Without it, all you got is a basic tech pin pivot point. You'd have far better DH control using twisted birch roots over basic tech pins IMO.

Of course, i'm not part of the 1% so take my answer with a grain of salt.

...Maybe J is onto something here. Its pretty anyways. A great fun read.

500$US for a pair of Meijo 2.1s at 920g for the pair....My Rottefella ST are 370g for a PAIR, that unholy binding should figure in the table, helps give some perspective!

What are we going to do with those 20 pairs of skis/person? Thats a lot of inserts....
I live for the Telemark arc....The feeeeeeel.....I ski miles to get to a place where there is guaranteed snow to do the deal....TM

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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by lowangle al » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:17 pm

That's a good idea and would be nice on a T4 type boot.

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Johnny
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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by Johnny » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:34 pm

treehugger wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:47 pm
Would a Tech toe and leathers provide the lightweight performance of nnnbc but with enough control for wider skis? Who wouldn't want that!!! Would a lighter touring version without springs in the plate make sense? How much control is there when just using tech toe touring?
Enough leverage and power to drive any ski. No need for a lighter version, just use the binding in tour mode for XC, or add a tiny XCelerator type flexor if you need some resistance. Click, engage the spring plate for downhill. Or use a very soft setting on the springs and keep them all the time. Twice the control and power for cross-country, 20 times the power downhill, and 50 times more fun.

bgregoire wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:53 pm
My Rottefella ST are 370g for a PAIR, that unholy binding should figure in the table, helps give some perspective!
The SuperTelemarks are not appropriate in this table since 99% of you guys are using cables for cross-country downill. And keep in mind that the Alico or Andrew boots you guys need to drive your ST without cables are 1600g each... Compared to the 725g ALFA Guards NTN-BC... 8-)
/...\ Peace, Love, Telemark and Tofu /...\
"And if you like to risk your neck, we'll boom down Sutton in old Quebec..."

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Johnny
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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by Johnny » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:39 pm

lowangle al wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:17 pm
That's a good idea and would be nice on a T4 type boot.
It's been here for over 10 years... It's called a Crispi Shiver NTN.
/...\ Peace, Love, Telemark and Tofu /...\
"And if you like to risk your neck, we'll boom down Sutton in old Quebec..."

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bgregoire
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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by bgregoire » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:49 pm

Johnny wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:34 pm
The SuperTelemarks are not appropriate in this table since 99% of you guys are using cables for cross-country downill. And keep in mind that the Alico or Andrew boots you guys need to drive your ST without cables are 1600g each... Compared to the 725g ALFA Guards NTN-BC... 8-)
You've got a way with numbers! Ha! :mrgreen:

Well, at least on this point, I am part of the 1% that thoroughly enjoys STs for DH, no cables of course. My Norwegian welted boots are not even close to 1600g each. They are 37.5% (or 2000% in your terms) lighter at about 1000g each. My Varg boots are even lighter. :geek:
I live for the Telemark arc....The feeeeeeel.....I ski miles to get to a place where there is guaranteed snow to do the deal....TM

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Johnny
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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by Johnny » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:57 pm

bgregoire wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:49 pm
My Norwegian welted boots about 1000g each. My Varg boots are even lighter. :geek:
Nice! Now imagine them with 2 pins instead of 3! :o :o :o
/...\ Peace, Love, Telemark and Tofu /...\
"And if you like to risk your neck, we'll boom down Sutton in old Quebec..."

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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by Johnny » Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:28 pm

Even better, imagine your favorite heavy-duty leather boots modded with 2 pins. And imagine your favorite tech toes at around 80g. Now just add a little mod to add a simple flexor, soft, hard or medium, your choice. For under 100g, you have the ULTIMATE XCd binding... Yes, for under 100g! Almost half the weight of the XCelerators. But with *perfect* lateral control for downhill on the steepest and most difficult slopes.

Just like NNN-BC, only A LOT more powerful, and 4 times lighter... (Much lighter than STs, and much more powerful too...) What are they doing at Rotte's headquarters exactly? Why nobody is coming up with new ideas? Am I the only one with thinking capabilites? I am only a stupid, not-so-funny clown, I'm not the one who should have new ideas here...

But hey, once again, for our dreams to come true, Rottefella would have to swallow its pride and come out with NTN rubber soles... It's their patent...
NNNkreuz.jpg
/...\ Peace, Love, Telemark and Tofu /...\
"And if you like to risk your neck, we'll boom down Sutton in old Quebec..."

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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by lowangle al » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:22 pm

The shiver is a nice boot, but a little tall for me at this point.

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