Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by treehugger » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:36 pm

bgregoire wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:53 pm

The spring and plate bit is central to this TELEMARK binding. Without it, all you got is a basic tech pin pivot point. You'd have far better DH control using twisted birch roots over basic tech pins IMO.
I would have assumed that a tech connection would be pretty stable to handle wide skis and heavy boots on the climb.
Johnny wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:28 pm
Even better, imagine your favorite heavy-duty leather boots modded with 2 pins. And imagine your favorite tech toes at around 80g. Now just add a little mod to add a simple flexor, soft, hard or medium, your choice. For under 100g, you have the ULTIMATE XCd binding... Yes, for under 100g! Almost half the weight of the XCelerators. But with *perfect* lateral control for downhill on the steepest and most difficult slopes.

Just like NNN-BC, only A LOT more powerful, and 4 times lighter... (Much lighter than STs, and much more powerful too...)
NNNkreuz.jpg
So no plate or springs needed? Just a more stable technical attachment? That's no joke! This is exactly what I wish was available. I have no interest in heavy or expensive tele gear. I just want to XC on wider skis in steeper terrain.

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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by bobbytooslow » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:54 pm

Great post! It's an exciting time for our sport, with so many ways to have freeheeled fun on snow. I agree 100% that Dynafit-style 2-pin toes are the way forward, for all forms of freeheel skiing that involve enjoying the turns you make. A couple thoughts:
Johnny wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:52 am
PERFECT cross-country skiing, and PERFECT downhill control. Absolutely no compromise. The holy grail is already here, and it's called the Meidjo 2.1.
The Meidjo is great, and Pierre is a damn hero. It turns exceptionally well, but it's not quite perfect. It requires you to step out to transition between modes -- not ideal when you're on top of a windy ridge. There are lots of small plastic parts to potentially break at inopportune times (ask me how I know). And it takes a lot of anti-ice tape to make it acceptably clump-proof. The 3.0 is definitely an improvement over the 2.1, especially how you don't need to prop the springbox up on the red stick anymore to step in.


Johnny wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:52 am
All we need is Rottefella to start selling NTN rubber soles with inserts to boot makers.
I'm all for the creation of lightweight NTN-compatible, touring-friendly boots, but why stick with leather? Old Scarpa F1 Race/Carbon boots are lighter than Alaskas, and give infinitely more control on the downhills. I find them quite comfortable once broken in, and the ability to open the cuff with one lever makes them kick & glide like a low-top classic boot.

If you're dead set on leather NTN boots, though, make some! Get some Alaskas, bolt on some Black Diamond AT Sole Blocks up front and Michael Bolt-on Duckbutts under the midfoot.
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There is still the issue of the kick & glide toe bumper. Standard 2-pin toepieces have their lock lever in the way. There are other options, but the cheap ones aren't durable and the durable ones aren't cheap.
Image
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Instead of a toe bumper, what if the NTN claw had two settings for resistance? Fully clamped down for downhill performance, and loosely clamped on for kick & glide resistance. And totally off for straight, steep climbing.

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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by bobbytooslow » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:13 pm

I like the idea of going without any connections aft of the toe, for weight savings, simplicity, and quick/easy transitions. Even if the problem of the toepiece lock lever being in the way could be solved, I don't think a simple rubber NNN-style toe bumper would be able to give the right feel for making good turns in challenging terrain. There have been several more-sophisticated attempts that I'm aware of:

The ATK Newmark, ostensibly abandoned because they were either exploding or tearing apart peoples' boots
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This Rottefella patent from 19 years ago. It has what is essentially a spring-loaded toe bumper.
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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by Johnny » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:49 pm

treehugger wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:36 pm
I have no interest in heavy or expensive tele gear. I just want to XC on wider skis in steeper terrain.
The ALFA Guards are 385$... If a NTN version ever sees the light of day, I doubt it will be cheaper... 8-)
In the meantime, NNN-BC is your best friend...

bobbytooslow wrote:but why stick with leather?
Because for powder it's just 100 times more fun than the TX Pro, the TX Comp, the Crispi WC, the Crispi EVO and the Scott Voodoo all combined... ;)

Great ideas man... I thought about somehow bringing the old Newmarks back to life... And interesting enough, while they were a failure and very short-lived, they would be *perfect* for leathers... But once again, we would need NTN leathers first... 8-)

I already thought about the old BD blocks... I almost bought a pair for fun last year for this project... I was not ready to disfigure a pair of new Alaskas back then... Plus I can't find my dremel anymore... I guess I will have to go for it at some point... To prove my point and sell the idea to the big players... 8-)

bobbytooslow wrote:Instead of a toe bumper, what if the NTN claw had two settings for resistance? Fully clamped down for downhill performance, and loosely clamped on for kick & glide resistance. And totally off for straight, steep climbing.
That is BRILLIANT! But it would also means that we would have to wait years before a new Meidjo is redesigned for this purpose... Right now the Meidjo is NTN-BC ready... But a great idea if this dream ever materialize...

bobbytooslow wrote:This Rottefella patent from 19 years ago. It has what is essentially a spring-loaded toe bumper.
SWEET JESUS Bobby... You have been digging very deep since you crossposted my post on EYT... Wow, this Rotte prototype is just awesome... Spring loaded, but it seems like there is two attachment points? Some kind of crossover between the Salomon pilot and NTN duckbutts!?! Wow, wow and WOW!

So that was 2001, years before NTN but really, not so long ago... Super interesting... Maybe Rotte are wiser than I think... Probably that the XCD/leather demand was at its lowest back then... And the idea evolved into NTN... Woaaah, this thing looks very light, and pretty much what I dream about... Even more interesting, look at the picture below... The boot has EYELETS! Definitely not intended for 4 buckles plastic boots... :lol:

springload.jpg
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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by bobbytooslow » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:22 pm

Johnny wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:49 pm
SWEET JESUS Bobby... You have been digging very deep since you crossposted my post on EYT... Wow, this Rotte prototype is just awesome... Spring loaded, but it seems like there is two attachment points? Some kind of crossover between the Salomon pilot and NTN duckbutts!?! Wow, wow and WOW!

So that was 2001, years before NTN but really, not so long ago... Super interesting... Maybe Rotte are wiser than I think... Probably that the XCD/leather demand was at its lowest back then... And the idea evolved into NTN... Woaaah, this thing looks very light, and pretty much what I dream about... Even more interesting, look at the picture below... The boot has EYELETS! Definitely not intended for 4 buckles plastic boots...
Ha, I've been digging into this stuff for quite a while. We're kind of meeting in the same place but from different directions. I train & race skimo style, but can't give up the tele turn. I'm trying to build something that's light, durable, and fast to transition. I currently use a DIY TTS that weighs ~110g on the up, and though I can install the cable without having to click out, I'd still prefer something that stays on the ski full-time. A spring-loaded toe bumper might be the answer, we'll see.

I'll never give up my plastic boots, though. I tried "skimo-ing" with Rossignol BC-X12's & Voile HD's, and there's just no comparison, at least for my needs. But, if modified leathers meet other folks' needs, I'm stoked and happy to help. If you need components 3D printed for your "projects," let me know.

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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by Johnny » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:21 pm

bobbytooslow wrote: I train & race skimo style, but can't give up the tele turn.
Drugs, booze, girls, alpine, meat, fat, sugar, salt... All pretty easy to give up... But the tele turn is a hell lot harder to get rid of...

bobbytooslow wrote:I'll never give up my plastic boots, though. I tried "skimo-ing" with Rossignol BC-X12's & Voile HD's, and there's just no comparison, at least for my needs.
They both have their uses... For everything powder and pure bliss, I go for leathers. For everything else and speed, I go for plastics.

bobbytooslow wrote: I'm stoked and happy to help.
Do you have any good contacts at Rottefella Norway? :D

bobbytooslow wrote: If you need components 3D printed for your "projects," let me know.
SUPER COOL shop on shapeways by the way! I'm very tempted to spend 50$ on your super nice Michael's... That would be a start... I thought about salvaging an old pair of AT boots for the dynafit fitting plate... But I'm getting old, not sure if I have the patience for this... By any chance, wouldn't you have a ready-to-print Vibram 1015 Ferret (Or NNNBC) to NTN template somewhere in your presets folder? :lol:

Johnny wrote:All we need is NTN Rubber Soles
Rubber-Solesss.png
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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by Cannatonic » Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:14 pm

this is some impressive innovation! Cool ideas. I wonder about the durability of the side-mounted pins on that rubber tip of the sole - the NNNBC or 75mm soles in the pictures - thinking the tips of the sole would have to be made with stronger material to hold the pin bearings over time.

I'm heavy-tele illiterate, I"m off in the woods with leather & lace, but it seems like the goal is an NNNBC-type boot and binding except more active resistance, but with no cables? some of us are using the original 1920's style 370g Rotte ST and full-thickness 75mm 3-pin welted sole for this. Many of us like this setup better for XCD/light tele touring because of the increased active resistance in the sole vs. NNNBC bar & bumper system.

But you can see the boot makers are investing in more and more heavy-duty NNNBC boots - people must be liking them for touring. It makes sense to offer a beefed-up binding to go along with the new class of leather system boots. I'm just afraid that manufacturers are going with the beefy NNNBC leathers because they're much cheaper to make in a factory instead of paying master cobblers to stitch welted boots.
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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by rongon » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:20 am

Johnny wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:39 pm
lowangle al wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:17 pm
That's a good idea and would be nice on a T4 type boot.
It's been here for over 10 years... It's called a Crispi Shiver NTN.
Wait... Crispi Shiver weighs like 7 lbs a pair, and they're pretty stiff. They're basically the NTN version of the XP model.

Scarpa T4 is a much lower, softer boot. Most comparable to the old Crispi CXT, but softer-flexing.

I don't see them as comparable.

Now if Crispi made a softer-flexing, 2 buckle version of the Shiver...

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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by Johnny » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:49 am

Wait... The T4 is 6 lbs and not much better than a pair of 4lbs high-quality leathers... 8-)
At 7lbs, the Shiver is slightly heavier but MUCH more powerful...

I had them all... And a pair of Guards or Alaskas with inserts would be the ultimate dream...
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Re: Johnny, Pierre, and the beast. Or the new Telemark Tech Norm (TTN) vs the future of XCD (NTN-BC)

Post by lowangle al » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:06 am

It's not as much about the weight as it is about the ROM of not having my ankle immobilized by the higher cuff of the three buckle boot.

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