The most supportive leather 75mm boots commonly available now?

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Roelant
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The most supportive leather 75mm boots commonly available now?

Post by Roelant » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:03 am

On the last day before lockdown we had a skiday with the office at a local resort. The conditions were very icy. I took my Nansens with Crispi Stetinds and, although I was able to ski down red slopes with more ease than some colleagues using alpine gear, I felt that the boots were giving me less support/control than I would want in those conditions.
I made a couple of edging errors which resulted in nasty falls (the ice was unforgiving). These errors are admittedly partly due to far from perfect telemark technique.
One colleague was running Ingstads with 75mm Andrew boots and doing much better, and suggested that the camber of the Nansens (of which he owns a pair) was also less forgiving in such conditions.

I have read here and there that, within a given boot model where both 75mm and NNN-BC models exist IE Crispi Svartisen or Alpina Alaska, both binding methods apparently offer "similar" control, but that the true benefit of 75mm lies with the fact that beefier 75mm options exist, such as the aforementioned Andrew boots.

To summarize, I have a thought of acquiring some Åsnes Rabbs (or maybe Falketinds) with 75mm + good leather boots.
I want to put a nail in the coffin of my remaining alpine ski gear and use the new equipment for norpine and vertical tours.
Is this a bad thing to be considering? How are those beefy leather 75mm boots for tours? I am wondering if I should in the same move remount my Nansens to 75mm.
Thanks

Edit: actually, I just read the Alico Ski March thread and found new UK surplus ones for 20 (!) GB£. This kind of unleashed my consumerist instincts and made buying them a no brainer. I'll probably get those and worry about which bindings at a later time...

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Re: The most supportive leather 75mm boots commonly available now?

Post by Woodserson » Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:50 am

Try the new boots, let us know.

The Nansen doesn't have the rocker the Ingstad has, which is why he may have been a having an easier go at it, less edges to catch the ice if you're not skiing straight.

I totally recommend the FT62 + Alaska 75mm. That's a dreamy combination. Love mine. Asnes nailed this ski.

I like the Rabb too, but in a shorter length than I can get away with in the FT. The FT62 in a 188cm skis as well as the Rabb in a 180, or vice versa depending on how you want to approach this. But I am not too fond of the Rabb 188cm in leather boots. So take that for what it's worth. I don't know why, I can't explain it.

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Re: The most supportive leather 75mm boots commonly available now?

Post by fgd135 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:27 am

The Alicos are reasonably supportive, but don't expect alpine-boot-type performance from them, or any leather boot. Edging in hard snow conditions, or on steep slopes, with leather boots will always be a disadvantage compared to a plastic telemark or AT boot--the torque created by weighting an edge when turning stresses the boot upper, and over time, the uppers will lose support--as will the soles, esp. if you're using pins instead of cables. Fwiw, a narrower ski will always perform better than a wider ski when using leather boots on hard snow, if flex is similar, as less leverage is needed to keep the ski on edge. One way to greatly increase the available torque and control when turning with leather boots is to use a cable binding, either one with removable cables for touring, like the Voile, or a lightwt cable like one of the various Rottefella types.
Last edited by fgd135 on Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The most supportive leather 75mm boots commonly available now?

Post by connyro » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:25 am

Why not try using light plastic boots like Excursions if you are looking for more dh control? They weigh about the same as heavy leathers and perform well for both k+g and dh. Plus they are waterproof and warm!

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Roelant
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Re: The most supportive leather 75mm boots commonly available now?

Post by Roelant » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:00 pm

connyro wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:25 am
Why not try using light plastic boots like Excursions if you are looking for more dh control? They weigh about the same as heavy leathers and perform well for both k+g and dh. Plus they are waterproof and warm!
I actually had a telemark system with plastic boots (heavy downhill skis, G3 Targa Ascent bindings, Garmont Genesis, all bought second hand about 10 years ago). The first problem was that the boots were a size too small, but otherwise I didn't like the "dead" feeling of the system compared to BC gear. In fact, when I bought my first BC skis I never used the heavy duty telemark stuff anymore. Why? Because I realized that I did not know how to telemark, I had been faking it for 5 years. I like the challenge that BC gear brings, where proper technique is beneficial to the whole experience.

When the Alicos arrive Ill first check if they fit me properly. Perhaps the next step is borrowing 75mm mounted skis from a friend to decide whether I want to switch over my Nansens (Mainly to answer the question of whether 25 km tours with 75mm and Alicos will still be fun).

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Re: The most supportive leather 75mm boots commonly available now?

Post by fisheater » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:28 pm

connyro wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:25 am
Why not try using light plastic boots like Excursions if you are looking for more dh control? They weigh about the same as heavy leathers and perform well for both k+g and dh. Plus they are waterproof and warm!
Connyro, I have both T-4’s and Alico Ski March boots. While the T-4 is more powerful, the Alico Ski March has a stiff sole and is very powerful in it’s own right. I have had the sole in the Ski March get torqued a bit by chopped up resort crud, but that is really one of the few times I wanted to go to the T-4. I need to put some time with 86 mm underfoot to see how the Ski March handles that width.
The Ski March is more comfortable to tour with, and more efficient to kick and glide with. You have much more ankle flexibility with the Ski March. For me that ankle flexibility has not affected my ability to make turns with this boot. It matches nicely with my FT 62, and easily overpowered the S-112

Conny, are you still skiing? I’ve already had the canoe on Lake Michigan for early season coho, down here. I miss skiing, but I make the most of what’s available.

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Roelant
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Re: The most supportive leather 75mm boots commonly available now?

Post by Roelant » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:11 pm

fisheater wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:28 pm
connyro wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:25 am
Why not try using light plastic boots like Excursions if you are looking for more dh control? They weigh about the same as heavy leathers and perform well for both k+g and dh. Plus they are waterproof and warm!
Connyro, I have both T-4’s and Alico Ski March boots. While the T-4 is more powerful, the Alico Ski March has a stiff sole and is very powerful in it’s own right. I have had the sole in the Ski March get torqued a bit by chopped up resort crud, but that is really one of the few times I wanted to go to the T-4. I need to put some time with 86 mm underfoot to see how the Ski March handles that width.
The Ski March is more comfortable to tour with, and more efficient to kick and glide with. You have much more ankle flexibility with the Ski March. For me that ankle flexibility has not affected my ability to make turns with this boot. It matches nicely with my FT 62, and easily overpowered the S-112

Conny, are you still skiing? I’ve already had the canoe on Lake Michigan for early season coho, down here. I miss skiing, but I make the most of what’s available.
This information is is very encouraging.
I am wondering if I am best served in a first phase with "just" new boots (and bindings) on my Nansens. I think the skis are more capable than I am.
Plus I have a previously undisclosed problem with the Crispi Stetinds. As much as I love the boots, I systematically get heel blisters every longer tour (>15 km) I do.

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Re: The most supportive leather 75mm boots commonly available now?

Post by fisheater » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:39 pm

Roelant,
I am sure the Nansen is a capable ski, I do have my doubts about how well it turns. I say this based on my experience with my Gamme. I have a US Army surplus Åsnes double cambered ski in 200 cm. I can ski that easily on intermediate runs with the Alico boot.
Now could I make turns with the Gamme on an intermediate run? I think so.
I saw a video of Gamme making turns on his namesake ski. He had it mounted NNN-BC. It was terrain that would have been fun on an FT-62, yet his turns were measured. He was giving instruction, I think in Norwegian. I still wondered why he didn’t let those skis run a bit. Now I understand, after skiing a Gamme 54. I really like the ski. I can turn it. It’s just more step turns, and stem turns. However I wouldn’t trade it. It tracks across tracked out hard pack like you had a couple inches of fresh keeping you straight. I didn’t know what kicking while really gliding along felt like before I got on this ski. It just isn’t really easy to make classic Telemark turns with. I have a feeling the Nansen might have a similar flex. I also can assume with greater rocker the Ingstad would have less effective edge, and will be easier to turn. To what degree I cannot say.
Also, while I really like my Ski March boot, it really would not be a good match for the Gamme. It’s just too stiff in the sole, and too heavy. I like it with FT 62, and hope I can handle my Tindan 86. I could easily overpower my S-112 with it. None of that makes it a good match for my Gamme, and I assume your Nansen. I am just relating my experience

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Roelant
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Re: The most supportive leather 75mm boots commonly available now?

Post by Roelant » Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:35 pm

fisheater wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:39 pm
Roelant,
I am sure the Nansen is a capable ski, I do have my doubts about how well it turns. I say this based on my experience with my Gamme. I have a US Army surplus Åsnes double cambered ski in 200 cm. I can ski that easily on intermediate runs with the Alico boot.
Now could I make turns with the Gamme on an intermediate run? I think so.
I saw a video of Gamme making turns on his namesake ski. He had it mounted NNN-BC. It was terrain that would have been fun on an FT-62, yet his turns were measured. He was giving instruction, I think in Norwegian. I still wondered why he didn’t let those skis run a bit. Now I understand, after skiing a Gamme 54. I really like the ski. I can turn it. It’s just more step turns, and stem turns. However I wouldn’t trade it. It tracks across tracked out hard pack like you had a couple inches of fresh keeping you straight. I didn’t know what kicking while really gliding along felt like before I got on this ski. It just isn’t really easy to make classic Telemark turns with. I have a feeling the Nansen might have a similar flex. I also can assume with greater rocker the Ingstad would have less effective edge, and will be easier to turn. To what degree I cannot say.
Also, while I really like my Ski March boot, it really would not be a good match for the Gamme. It’s just too stiff in the sole, and too heavy. I like it with FT 62, and hope I can handle my Tindan 86. I could easily overpower my S-112 with it. None of that makes it a good match for my Gamme, and I assume your Nansen. I am just relating my experience
Fisheater,
Thanks for the clear advice, I will consider it carefully. Probably best after trying a friends skis with the Alicos.
The Gamme 54 ski is named after is Aleksander Gamme, the husband of Cecilie Skog. I think the instructional video you saw is of his brother Pål Trygve Gamme, if you refer to the one where he is hopping for every turn. I guess some things run in the family. The Nansen has quite a bit more sidecut than the Gamme, but yes its turning radius is longer than the Ingstad because of the longer effective length.
A recent test in utemagasinet.no measures the camber of the Nansen in 205 cm to 44 kg to compress it completely. This is identical to the Ingstad in the same length (surprisingly). They have not tested the Gamme recently.

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Re: The most supportive leather 75mm boots commonly available now?

Post by bgregoire » Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:12 pm

A few pointers:

- The Excursion boot mentioned above is a plastic 2 buckle boot. It has nothing to do with your Garmont Genesis (4 buckle). I would not exclude the Excursion based on your experience with the Genesis or any full on Tele plastic boot alone. Try it if you can.

- The Alico Ski March might eat up your feet like soft butter. They can be terrible if you are prone to blisters. Take good care breaking them in. It could take weeks. They have a super stiff sole but not much support above the ankle.

-The most "supportive" (still available NEW) 75mm leather boot? Being it Norway, you should check out the Andrew St-Moritz. If you were in Australia or the Chzech republic, I would recomment the Andrew Zenith (with buckle strap). Both of these are rare.

https://www.gamletorvetsport.no/fjellski-støvler-75mm

Again, since you are fortunate to be in Norway, check out the Crispi Bre:

https://www.crispinorge.com/produkter.html#ski

The Andrew Refugio and Crispi Antartic are also decent boot, more readily available (through online retailers in Europe).

All of the above suggestions are norwegian stitched boots. Some of the finest leathers still available on planet earth.

Read more than you ever need to know about them here:

http://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.p ... 9d489f5aa3
I live for the Telemark arc....The feeeeeeel.....I ski miles to get to a place where there is guaranteed snow to do the deal....TM

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