Would you screw kicker skins directly into the ski base?

[trite]

I’ll be pulling a heavy pulk for a few weeks, and I need kicker skins for grip. I’ll likely leave them on the entire trip. Since I don’t have Easy-Skin or Skin-Lock attachments, I currently just use Black Diamond GlideLite Kicker Skins.

Current problem:

Ice jams in between the steel plate of the Black Diamond skins and the ski base (see photo). Snow jamming can be prevented by flattening the steel plate and cranking down on the strap when installing, but slush and ice jams can't be prevented. There’s also two other potential failure points of this attachment system: the nylon webbing is already abrading against the ski’s steel edges and rough snow conditions, and the plastic buckle may easily crack in extreme cold or after extended use.

These are potentially trip-ruining problems for a multi-week trek.

Past solution:

I’ve read various accounts of polar expeditions screwing in skins directly to the base (along with using super glue on the skin rather than skin glue, but that’s another question).

My idea:

I’d like to remove the nylon webbing and buckle from the Black Diamond skins, drill out two countersunk holes on the metal plate where the rivets currently sit, and then install two threaded inserts (Binding Freedom) on the base of the ski. I’d use proper Hardman Blue epoxy. I’d use flat machine screws to then attach the metal plate and skin directly to the base for a clean, flush, and secure finish.

Why inserts:

To easily remove the skins for hot glide waxing and if I want to use kick wax.

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Is this a dumb idea? Am I missing anything here?

I'm hoping for input from @lilcliffy, @Woodserson, and @bgregoire .

[trite]

I just now see the other recent kicker skin thread. I guess it's skin time.

[Woodserson]

What kind of skis are these/what kind of skiing? Where are you going? This seems very exciting, I am stoked to hear more!

Do you need edge to edge coverage? I've had good luck with narrow skins that run full length climbing around here in NH for downhill skiing-- so a 60mm skin on a 95mm ski, for instance, which is heresy in some circles, but I'm not edging my way up some big exposed slope and don't need the coverage on the sides of the skis, I just need to go straight up. Works well to the astonishment of others.

Several on this forum have done a thin strip, like 30 or 45mm right down the middle of a XC ski with good results. I haven't but it's somewhere on this website.

[bgregoire]

Hi @trite,

You want to talk expedition, well here I am!

For your info I have done a 50 day ski traverse across a large section of Laponia using Fisher E99s, first gen extralite and those BD kicker skins. (If you are mostly touring flattish areas, I'd go with half skins over narrow full length, even though I agree with Woods that its a great idea for climbing, i do it myself as well).

The darn bindings & skis broke but the kickers did not (and they were not even new). I seem to remember I brought back up nylons straps and buckles but did not use them.

People on polar expeditions did screw skins into the ski base but that (mostly) was before the advent of the skis with half skin attachment points (at least thats my understanding).

It might seem advantageous but you are basically wrecking your skis. Why not buy a new pair of sexy Asnes skis with half skins? At the end of your trip would will have 2 pairs of skis (including the ones you currently own) instead of one potentially useless pair.

You can probably buy an extra pair of half skins as backup but I would not be to worried about them breaking PARTICULARLY if you plan on keeping them on at all times.

Another perspective would be to say you can do the trip and plan on surviving well with the BD skins, but that plate can be such a pain. I don't think they will break on you though, especially if you care for your gear. (Perhaps the plate can be modded and I read it can be done here, but I was never successful with that).

If you do decide to glue the skins, I would not use a plate (but if you do insist, shave the skin at the point first). I'd find the smallest (shortest) flat heat screws available and just use that with epoxy, after having carefully removed the original glue (finishing the cleaning with acetone).

Besides, I'm not sure your threaded insert idea would even work because of the thickness of the ski at the area where the screws should be (approximate BD plate position). Check it out.

Another cool thing with the removable skins is that you might like to ski without them on some particular days where the snow is just right and your pulk is light. You can wax full length with better (glide) results than skins and it fees great.

More thoughts?

As Woods asked, where ya going?!

Happy planning!

[turnfarmer]

I like the idea of kicker skins but the steel plate attachment system is crude and adds a lot of drag. I think just screwing the skin on would also add a lot of drag at the from edge.

I'm about to make my own skin lock type system. I talked to the Skimoco folks and they recommended these as the thinnest skin available-

https://skimo.co/kohla-alpinist-skin-roll

I'm going to mill a slot 1/2 inch wide to pull the the skin through and attach it to the top with a post through a hole in the skin. I will seal the hole with some epoxy.

The biggest question is how risky will it be to weakening the ski? They are a pair of old Alpine skis so I'm not to worried about it as Alpine skis are built to take the pressure right in front of the binding which is where the skin comes through. And as I'm skiing with a few heel it will never approach that kind of loading.

For where I ski, it won't matter, but for expedition, I think I'd just buy a Fischer or Asnes setup. The lack of drag on a trip like this would be worth every dollar!

[trite]

@Woodserson and @bgregoire, I'll let you know where I'm headed soon!

The darn bindings & skis broke but the kickers did not (and they were not even new).

Ooof, a broken ski is the only piece of gear for which I've yet to make a repair plan.

It might seem advantageous but you are basically wrecking your skis.

Why would threaded inserts in the ski base ruin the ski? How would inserts affect the ski any more than the two open slots in Asnes' current skin attachment system?

Why not buy a new pair of sexy Asnes skis with half skins?

I have three pair of the Asnes USGI -- heavy, sure, but I love these skis, and they're perfect for trips with long, flat lake travel and rough, deep portages. You need a lot of beef and a lot of float.

I guess the Combat NATO or the Ingstad rival this pair, but that's a waste when these work so great. (My partner and I have put hundreds of miles on these over several trips with no issues so far). They also look dope af.

I can let myself sacrifice one pair of these USGI if I botch the insert job.

If you do decide to glue the skins, I would not use a plate (but if you do insist, shave the skin at the point first

Another cool thing with the removable skins is that you might like to ski without skins on some particular days where the snow is just right and you pulk is light. You can wax full length with better results than skins and it fees great

My plan was to modify that plate attachment, not mess with glue. My intended goal is for a more robust attachment point that still allows me to unscrew a couple screws and quickly remove the skins when necessary.

How would this differ from Asnes' current system?

Besides, I'm not sure your threaded insert idea would even work because of the thickness of the ski at the area where the screws should bne (approximates BD plate position).

It's 14mm deep where I would drill, and the insert is only 9mm long, so it should be fine.

However, on that note, before drilling permanent holes, is there a rule of thumb for kicker skin placement? I know its entirely relative on kick zone, snow conditions, personal preference, etc.

I've also learned so much from @lilcliffy and his posts on extending kick wax forward for additional grip.

I've yet to try wax full length though, like you mentioned. I really need to try this.

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Really appreciate your thoughts, so helpful that you've used these skins on expedition! Relieved to know no major issues. Would still like to have a cleaner and stronger attachment though, hmmm...

[trite]

I'm going to mill a slot 1/2 inch wide to pull the the skin through and attach it to the top with a post through a hole in the skin. I will seal the hole with some epoxy.

Really like this concept! Please post when you finish?

For where I ski, it won't matter, but for expedition, I think I'd just buy a Fischer or Asnes setup. The lack of drag on a trip like this would be worth every dollar!

The Asnes system still has a plate, so still drag.

[Baaahb]

As you may have seen, the plate clog problem can be reduced by making the front of the plate slant more into the ski by adding a slight thickness to the back of the plate. This has worked for me.

One of my skins, about two decades old now, has pulled out of one of the rivets but still works.....however, I'm not putting in 20 (or even 10) mile days.

To answer your question, I'd try a noninvasive solution first, maybe strong tape around the front of the plate holding it firmly to the ski with no crack for that snow wedge. The idea of long skinny skins is also attractive, especially if you won't be doing much turns (in my experience, kicker skins stay on well during turns, skinny skins do not). You can experiment with the width to get the right amount of kick and glide. (or with the length)

[fgd135]

Have you considered milling a skin-width slot down the length of the ski base wax pocket, thru the ptex to the fiberglass layer underneath, and then gluing the skins in place? This would work with skins that are somewhat narrower than the base width, on those MT65's, maybe a 35-40mm width skin. This would get the skin backing material flush with the ptex, leaving only the plush to cause drag, probably no need for a leading edge protector at all. Small wood screws, in addition to the adhesive, could be added, and being below the ptex layer the drag from the screws would be diminished. This would also be easy to change out in the field.
BTW, I've done hundreds of miles on those Åsnes military skis, and love em. What's not to like for $20 a pair, new?

[Woodserson]

My idea:

I’d like to remove the nylon webbing and buckle from the Black Diamond skins, drill out two countersunk holes on the metal plate where the rivets currently sit, and then install two threaded inserts (Binding Freedom) on the base of the ski. I’d use proper Hardman Blue epoxy. I’d use flat machine screws to then attach the metal plate and skin directly to the base for a clean, flush, and secure finish.

Why inserts:

To easily remove the skins for hot glide waxing and if I want to use kick wax.

--

Is this a dumb idea? Am I missing anything here?

So on closer re-read, I don't think this is a dumb idea and I think it's pretty legit and I think you should do it and report back.

I think maybe Ben is worried about your wrecking $400 dollar skis that are lightly built by drilling inserts through them, but a thoughtfully countersunk insert so everything is flush and nothing stands proud, all within the tank-built USGI seems low risk.

I would go for it.

I would also think about other options, like replicating the EZskin system like Lars Danner and Johral have and suggested by Turnfarmer:

Here (look for specific post on this page): http://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.p ... e&start=20
Here: http://telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 01b#p34375

You don't have the EZ Skin bracket but you can totally post them to a bolt drilled through the topsheet forward of where you want the skin to attach. This is done quite commonly, but to attach tails when people have skins that are too long but don't want to cut them, they curve them up around the tail and attach to a bolt. This eliminates the need for the pesky metal plate completely and will just be smoother.

I will note the Asnes X skin is remarkably low drag. I notice it most on firm lake surfaces however, which seems to be what you do a bunch of.