NNN BC Magnum reliability in the backcountry

[jooleyen]

I am planning to do some longer ski treks in some remote areas and I really like the reliability of 3 pin/cable vs NNN. I don't own anything NNN right now, but would like to buy some boots and bindings. I tried NNN once and it felt much nicer to stride and glide with.
The thing is weighing the risks of using something not as strong as 3 pin in a remote place. If my boot fails, are there any tried and true field repair methods? How about for the bindings? Carry a spare with some screws and a screwdriver?

Or maybe it's just not worth the risk and I'd be better off using 3 pin even though it's not as efficient. What are your thoughts on these two options?

[MikeK]

bgregoire did quite a long trek with his lady and was wearing NNN and her pins. As I recall her boots failed

Reliability is not always a function of being beefier...

[bgregoire]

I have experience with this!!! Both my NNN BC bindings broke on a 50 days ski expedition while my partners 3 pin boot sole tore to shreds! I'd say better carry an extra NNN BC binding or 2 than an extra pair or 3 pin boots!

It so happens that my girlfriends Alpina Alaska 75mm had I design flaw that was apparently since repaired, LoveJohnny should be reporting back to us on this next year as his also failed that way. So, in a way, it really also depends on the model model itself for 3pin reliability anyway.

Now, for NNN BC and expeditions, its good to know they are now regularly used on polar and greenland cap expeditions. Often combined with ALFA polar gaitered boots or a boot + glued supergaiter combo. Boots are chosen oversize to accomodate extra socks and or liners to fight off the cold and used along with VBL liners.

First off, avoid the automatic versions. if the trip is very long, I would swap out your actual NNN BC bindings for new ones before the trip (I have come to assume the metal mechanisms does weaken and break in time as both my bindings died within a week, and they were mostly ice free). Its also important to take care of the bindings: don't force them shut as snow or ice is probably in the way. Clean em out! If camping, clean out the ice and snow inside of them at the end of the day and store them shut. If going from hut to hut, yeah! bring them inside to thaw out accumulated ice and snow that may build up in the mechanism. For the spare or 2, leave the heel support at home but include the flexors and screws, who knows, you might loose one of those as well. Carry a short screwdriver with the appropriate philips head, its a #3 i believe and very hard to find in shorter length (a leather man would be a pain for this repair). A specialized online ski shop might have it. Otherwize, go for a lightweight multi-screw driver. Bring only the bits you need. It would be my recommendation to carry some kind of glue with you on an extended trip, the type depending on the material you think you may beed to repair. dab that into the holes before you place the new screws and binding!

I have heard of the pin sometimes tearing off the sole of the NNN BC boot. sounds like a story from hell. I think it would be a very rare event though and probably due to ha serious fall, such as a bad accident on the down or simply lack of skill.

As for repairing the binding mechanism if broken, I don't think there is much you can expect to do. I tried tying the boot to my ski with rope. it kinda keeps them together but it would be a last resort "repair" as you end up ski very awkwardly to keep the boot and binding togerther. If it worries you, better bring a spare binding indeed (although I have never bothered on a less than 1 week trip.
where are you going? have fun!

[jooleyen]

Oh boy, sounds like a nightmare. Almost scared me away from nnn completely! The only reason I even considered it is because I think the comfort of NNN would make a long multi-month trip nicer - you agree?

I wouldn't consider any 3 pin except for a rugged boot like your andrew boots or my alico doubles. I've heard the quality of your boots are similar to mine. Smile plates sounds like good insurance.

What I think I'll do is try some NNN magnums just for short trips and build some confidence in them...think about it some more. Maybe I'll even break one and get a chance to try and field repair it!

I want to go across Norway. Not sure if it'll be a hiking trip or a ski trip. If I don't ski there, not sure where I will go.
But man, anywhere you can ski for 50 days has got to be a special place. Where did you go?

[bgregoire]

I want to go across Norway. Not sure if it'll be a hiking trip or a ski trip. If I don't ski there, not sure where I will go.
But man, anywhere you can ski for 50 days has got to be a special place. Where did you go?

We crossed northern Sweden and Norway last year. You can see our itinerary here:
http://living-laponia.tumblr.com/itineraire

On a month long trip, you will most certainly carry a sled. An extra NNN BC binding would be very little extra weight. I did not mean to scare you off NNN BC at all, just being realistic and extra cautious. Actually, the vast majority of skiers we met there are using NNN BC, at least for skis like E99 or Asnes Amundsen. Those who ski E109 or Asnes Nansen often combine with 3 pin but NNN BC is also common. Few really go on long-distance traverses with anything wider. The snow is compact and simply amazing. Having played around with the Andrew double boot, I'd say it would will be much nicer overall if your are doing such a traverse to go with NNN BC or at least a softer and lighter 75 mm boot than the Alico Mod or Andrew double, I consider them relatively stiff, similarly in some respects to a Garmont Excursion plastic boot.
Regardless of that, if you are mostly camping, a double boot in an interesting insurance. in that casee, think in terms of your complete foot system rather than only the boot. making sure you have enough layering possibilities for the temperatures you will encounter, protection from humidity coming from you foot and from the outside. that's why we went with super gaiters, 1-2 size bigger boots and VBLs.

also, regarding 75mm failure, smiley plates might be a good insurance to prevent the pin holes from tearing out but the sole can fail in other ways. Check out my partners boots she used on our expedition:

http://40.media.tumblr.com/e0f3fa3a2057 ... 4_1280.jpg

They also tore between the sole and the toe of the boot, allowing humidity and the cold to slowly seep up to her toes. I considered myself the lucky one on our trip with the broken NNN BC bindings that I could simply replace. It's also actually now easier to find NNN BC bindings & boots in scandinavian shops over the 3 pin set up although both can be found if you shop around. So that might also be a consideration.

[jooleyen]

No way man that's awesome! You are going to be my go-to guy for questions regarding my journey, that okay with you?
I had been planning on choosing between the glittertind, nansen, amundsen, e99, or 109 for this trip just based on what most other Norwegians seem to be using for distance. Just want to get one to use around here so I can get comfortable with it and learn it's handling. And using a pulk for sure. Did you bring all your food for your expedition or did you resupply someplace?

I guess that just shows anything can happen with gear. Just have to be as cautious as possible and try to be prepared to make repairs.

[bgregoire]

I guess that just shows anything can happen with gear. Just have to be as cautious as possible and try to be prepared to make repairs.

Ditto. I'll start I new topic right away on Backcountry ski expeditioning right away to address your questions, had been thinking about it for a while anyways!

[1EyedJack]

good stuff here, especially expedition-worthy equipment.

just one point of clarification regarding screwdrivers: Pozidrive is what you want, not Phillips. Phillips will f-up your binding screws.

from http://rougeriverworkshop.blogspot.com/ ... idriv.html:

"The difference between the two drives lies in the shape of the flutes. Phillips flutes taper inwards slightly. Pozidriv flutes' opposite sides are parallel to one another. Here's a view of the two drivers.

The Pozidriv bit is the one at the left. Note how the manner in which the Pozidriv flutes are ground differs from the Phillips bit at the right. The Pozidriv flute sides are parallel; the Phillips flutes are tapered."

[bgregoire]

good stuff here, especially expedition-worthy equipment.

just one point of clarification regarding screwdrivers: Pozidrive is what you want, not Phillips. Phillips will f-up your binding screws.

Interesting, I never knew of the Pozidrive. Regardless though, I think that neither of the bits on your pic are optimal for the generic ski screws. I've always used the Phillips #3, its "fatter" than those on your pic and inserts perfectly into the screws. I've never had one slip either.

[lilcliffy]

Hmmm...I have to say that I have not found 75mm-3 pin bindings more reliable than NNNBC.

If the 3 pin binding is more reliable- 3 pin boots are definitely not more reliable than NNNBC boots.

For example; I now have easily more than 2000kms of backcountry touring on my current Alpina Alaska NNNBC boots- with no breakdown.

The longest trip I have been on either binding is about 7 days of long-distance touring (either hut to hut, or camping). I am in complete agreement with bgregoire- bring extra bindings, tools and parts (including extra laces!)

I was anxious about NNNBC breakdowns when I first started using them for backcountry skiing, over a decade ago (was on 75mm 3pin before that). I have had minor breakdowns- but certainly no more than 75mm-3 pin.

In recent years I have noticed a disturbing trend however- a growing number of 75mmNN-3 pin boot failures. I have seen an increasing number of 75mm-3 pin boot failures- both amongst skiers I personally know- and the internet is full of reports.

I am suspicious that when it comes to many of the backcountry-xcountry boots; manufacturers are first and foremost designing NNNBC boots, and then retrofitting them with 75mm soles as an afterthought. I am sure there are exceptions to this (e.g. Fischer BCX875- lots of reports of failures there as well)- I know of many instances where Rossi and Fischer BC 75mm boots (e.g. BCX675 in both lineups) have failed- while their NNNBC counterparts have gone on for countless miles of trouble free skiing.

I have to say I am also suspicious of the Alaska 75mm- I am seeing a growing number of reports of failures. I at one time was convinced that I wanted a pair of Alaska 75mm for my 3pc bindings- not so sure anymore.

There appears to be a much smaller number of reported failures with dedicated, heavier (often plastic) 75mm-3 pin boots.