Telehiro and B-Tele Discussion

[CIMA]

I intentionally put my outer ski on its inner edge initially. I do that with a short mountain-side-of-body contraction often. Or by focusing on the inner edge of my outer leg foot sole.

By contrast, according to b-tele instructions, you should re-direct your skis by pivoting and bent-ski-releasing. However, if you watch the first video above, even TH himself "squats" as late as close to fall line. At the slow speed, it seems he initiates turns in some other way first.

It may be he initiates the movement by central body movements, like an initial mountain-side-of-body contraction. In terms of ski-snow interface, side-of-body contractions and extensions produce carving. Or maybe he initiates the video turns just by starting to sweep. I guess the sweep also means partial carving, because you sweep with a foot inner edge there. Or maybe he releases edges just by relaxing his legs. When skiing faster, bent-ski-release may be a major factor. It looks like re-direct and release mechanisms vary within b-tele.

When I started to make a sides-of-body-tilt, when sweeping, I managed to drop intermediate steps of weighting from my skiing. Sometimes I just flow from a turn to another with the sides-of-body-tilts now. Currently, weight often flows from outer ski to inner ski with each sweep. That makes it feel a bit like XC skiing, or kayaking. A fast pace of alternating sides may add to such feels.

I have added also another intermediate step to b-tele instructions. Before starting a sweep, I extend my legs. That seems necessary because my sweeps end up in a slightly squatted position, with contracted ankles. I end up there because I pressure my braking ski with extensions from knee up only. My ankles are somewhat bent and heel down in my current tele stance.

The extension of legs gives you some space to free-fall and down-unweight release. Actually the second video a-tele skier does that, too. So I still "pump", move up and down vertically like the second video skier Yet my pumping feels more subtle. By the way, what might make the second video skier look a bit clumsy is that he has his weight forward, so his skis start to slide forward, when he is expected to skid.

I would not even call straigthening your legs "impulsing". But maybe b-tele elegance comes from omitting such unnecessary intermediate steps?

Although I cannot visualize your progress in B-tele skiing very well, it seems that you are on the right track to achieving your goal.

One of the easiest ways to confirm how well you have mastered B-tele is by skiing on powder snow that is less than knee deep and making continuous turns. If you feel different sensations of floating and find that the turns are easier to execute, then those are proofs of improvement in your technique. B-tele skiing with light gear is especially enjoyable.

[Sidney Dunkin]

If in B tele, if you don’t need to know how to weight your skis or know where your center of mass is, it should be easy. But I don’t think that’s the case.

Some snow conditions require a heavily weighted ski, like crust, there’s no way around that. The reason why you haven’t experienced any forward falls is because, like I said, your center of mass is further back then in A tele. So, while in your view you don’t need to think about equal weighting and your COM you still need to get it right.

I am constantly adjusting my posture and weight distribution while skiing, so it's natural for me to believe that my center of mass is also changing. Although I instinctively balance myself, I don't prioritize weight distribution like others might. My main focus is sensing where gravity is pulling me, particularly on steep slopes. The momentum of falling always guides me in the right direction and informs me how I should adjust my behavior. I don't have a fixed approach to weight distribution while skiing. Quote.




For sure your weight distribution and center of mass are always changing. The ability to make the necessary changes to stay stable and in balance are more critical for B tele than A tele. B tele takes more skill and finesse to keep up with and adjust to how gravity and surface conditions affect you. If you haven’t mastered how to weight your skis and stay centered I don’t know how you can do B tele.

[Montana St Alum]

My tely skiing is very close in many ways to my alpine skiing. I expect that is very A-Tely, Vs. B-tely. I'm not arguing against any style or technique, just that there are limitations inherent in them.

ROM in light gear provides a sense of freedom for sure. But ROM doesn't necessarily translate into greater capability. If I were to ski alpine in walk mode it wouldn't translate into greater capability even though it would provide greater ROM. I can alpine ski stuff that would be impossible for me to ski on heavy tely gear. And I can tely ski stuff that would be out of the question on light gear. That's just harder to do. I can see that it's possible that b-tely makes it easier - just not easier than alpine skiing.

I just want to clarify that in my previous post, I did not discuss the overall skiing technique in a broad sense like what you referred to as "greater capability." I was simply pointing out that B-tele skiers who use low-cut boots have an easier time swinging their lead skis compared to alpine skiers due to the freedom of their heels and ankles. The topic of our discussion is quite narrow. However, if you ever get the chance to rent an XC setup, you can experience this for yourself.

I have skied on XC gear. I did for a few years when we first moved to Utah. I also did so in college in Montana.

Ski a steep narrow chute on XC gear and then on alpine gear. Ski powder over bumps on both and tell me XC gear makes maneuvering easier. There is no technique that makes it as easy to do that on XC gear as it is on alpine gear.

I disagree with this statement: "B-tele skiers who use low-cut boots have an easier time swinging their lead skis compared to alpine skiers due to the freedom of their heels and ankles."

If you are only talking about low angles and slow speeds, it is closer to being accurate, but alpine is just easier. I have friends that get in over 20,000 feet of vert on powder days, lift served, in varied terrain - mostly expert runs. Good luck doing that on XC gear.

[tkarhu]

B tele takes more skill and finesse to keep up with and adjust to how gravity and surface conditions affect you. If you haven’t mastered how to weight your skis and stay centered I don’t know how you can do B tele.

I agree. B-tele movements are fast and subtle, so you need to have basics like weight distribution and edging in order, when learning b-tele. I had been more on XC skis, nordic ice skates and in kayaks before starting tele, so I need to think more of edging and angulation personally.

I think b—tele instructions focus on the pecularities of b-tele and imply basic skiing skills. Still b-tele and a-tele are one family, they even share the last name. I also hopefully see our debate is more of a family argument than a feud.

[Sidney Dunkin]

A and B tele are indeed branches of the same tree. You may need to mix them on the same run to stay balanced and centered, whatever it takes to keep your feet under you. Most likely some turns are a combination of the two.

I don’t see differences of opinion as arguments. Sometimes it takes a little discussion to realize that we actually agree on something, but are expressing it differently.

[Montana St Alum]

A and B tele are indeed branches of the same tree. You may need to mix them on the same run to stay balanced and centered, whatever it takes to keep your feet under you. Most likely some turns are a combination of the two.

I don’t see differences of opinion as arguments. Sometimes it takes a little discussion to realize that we actually agree on something, but are expressing it differently.

True. These techniques are just tools. I do think a pure pursuit of b-Tely is valuable. Once that's conquered and it's "in your quiver" of options, it's bound to make you a better skier.

[tkarhu]

I agree! I think you can ski all kinds of turns with b-tele technique. But why not drop a knee every now and then, too, if you want to ski that "look".

EDIT: I do not know how well b-tele pivoting works on track stiffness double cambers, though. I have yet to try out that on Gammes, when I have got the technique properly dialed in first.

[wabene]

This thread is exhausting, let me know when the crib notes version comes out

[Yamaska]

Oui

[CIMA]

I have skied on XC gear. I did for a few years when we first moved to Utah. I also did so in college in Montana.

Ski a steep narrow chute on XC gear and then on alpine gear. Ski powder over bumps on both and tell me XC gear makes maneuvering easier. There is no technique that makes it as easy to do that on XC gear as it is on alpine gear.

I disagree with this statement: "B-tele skiers who use low-cut boots have an easier time swinging their lead skis compared to alpine skiers due to the freedom of their heels and ankles."

If you are only talking about low angles and slow speeds, it is closer to being accurate, but alpine is just easier. I have friends that get in over 20,000 feet of vert on powder days, lift served, in varied terrain - mostly expert runs. Good luck doing that on XC gear.

I understand that you are discussing the technical proficiency of alpine skiers, but I would like to clarify that my previous statement referred only to the swing movements in the following picture.

When using alpine boots and bindings, the length of the arc that the downhill-side leg can carve is limited due to the fixed heel and ankle. However, low-cut telemark boots and bindings allow for greater freedom of movement, resulting in a wider range of motion.

Furthermore, the alpine skier in the picture contracts their body to swing their leg during turns, while the B-tele skier extends their body to achieve the same movement. It may be easier to execute these movements while extending the body.