The NNN/BC Truth Thread

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MikeK

Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by MikeK » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:40 pm

I tried a Crispi Mtn Black and wound up not buying it, but it's a welted boot like the others mentioned. I thought it fit just like my Asolo boots. A 43 was too tight and the 44 a touch long, but the right width for me... like the Alaska 44. So I'd say they are close to the Alaska too.

The Svartisen fits different though. They run just a tad bigger, so a 43 was right for me.

I think if I was going to order an Antarctic or Sydpolin I'd go the same sizing as my Alaska.

Personally I'd also say even for a touring boot, I'd want the Antarctic or Sydpolin. The Mtn Black was incredibly stiff soled but I assume it would the same as the other two, but the issue was really heel lift. It just didn't come up high enough in the back or have enough lacing up front to keep my heel from lifting. Probably would have gotten better with break in, but I suspect I would have had some bad blisters up until then.

From Can's experience, sounds like the higher top boots are winners though.

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Cannatonic
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Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by Cannatonic » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:03 pm

Mike - I tried a pair of Mountain and didn't like them for the reasons you mention - they're too low in the back to hold my heel down well. Looks like they've been discontinued. I would go with an NNNBC boot like Alaska over the Mountain. The Antarctic are still comfortable for striding but do much better at supporting your heel and ankle - more supportive than Alaska. The Vibram soles are all the same (stiff) but the leather boots will feel much better after a few outings. The sole will develop some rocker and flex.

I tried on a pair of Sydpolen, they are similar to Antarctic but not exactly the same. I don't like Gore-TEx in leather boots, I don't think it adds anything and the membrane could stop the leather from stretching and conforming to your feet. If you keep the Antarctic well-oiled or greased they will stay waterproof and be durable.

The Antarctic are known for running 1/2 to a full size longer (they are 1/2 size longer than Mountain in the same size too). The 47's are about US 13.5, the 46 is US 12.5. A friend of mine with size 10 feet uses size 43 Antarctics. I'm sure the Blue Ice guy would let you exchange a pair if they don't fit. Telemark Pyrenees has good prices on these too, the shipping is affordable and they take returns.

btw there is a guy selling Garmont Tour boots for $100 on ebay, very similar to Antarctic, very good quality. Just search on "garmont leather telemark". He's got the wrong picture of the boots up, but they are brand new. Size 10 and 11 are gone but most of the others are still there. The boots are about 1/2 size larger than he says - I got a pair of 13's and they're more like 13.5. He will give you the exact length of the sole and the Euro size if you ask.

*edit, one final suggestion - the guys at Telemarkdown sell the Antarctic too, although it's not on their website. The price is lower than retail.
"All wisdom is to be gained through suffering"
-Will Lange (quoting Inuit chieftan)





MikeK

Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by MikeK » Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:54 am

Cool - Teledown is good to deal with.

Sounds like the Antarctic runs more like the Svartisen, good to know! I had just assumed due to the similar sole that they'd be like the mountain blacks.





MikeK

Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by MikeK » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:52 pm

BCNNN/BCSNS

The advent of BCNNN/BCSNS boots has done a serious disservice to long ski touring market. The boots became so popular with the low-use (weekend) market that they edged out the more reliable 3-pin options. The BCNNN/BCSNS boots aren’t built to withstand a long or rugged trip. Don’t be fooled by the marketing, they fail all the time and your boot will end up strapped to the ski at some point. Dave Cramer, the Alaska Mountain Wilderness Classic organizer, says: The fact that the skiing public puts up with it [BCNNN/BCSNS boots] is either a testament to the power of mass marketing or a measure of how few people really get out and do the multi-day mixed terrain trips anymore– probably both.

Bindings

BCNNN/BCSNS bindings are pretty reliable, the problem is with the boots. The most common complaint with BCNNN/BCSNS bindings is about icing up. In addition to being annoying (Eben Sargent’s boots were frozen onto his skis for 2 days in the Brooks Range), icing can lead to bending or breaking pieces within the binding. BCSNS has a slightly better reputation for ease of de-icing.

Boots

All boots are reviewed as being somewhere between ‘OK’ and ‘they suck,’ so there aren’t any specific recommendations. The great hope are Alfa boots, but I don’t know anyone who has used them. The Alfa Polars are the go-to for Greenland traverses and look really promising for cold weather trips.

The most common boot failure is the toe-bar loosening or completely pulling out of the boot. The boot material and seams also fail with low mileage, especially on the top and sides of the toe box where the boot flexes. Zippers break and ice up too. The waterproof models are not waterproof, though you probably don’t want a waterproof boot on a long trip, you can be certain to soak it from the inside, if not out.

Despite these problems, BCNNN/BCSNS boots are light, comfortable, and skate-ski well. If you aren’t too far removed from the road system, they might be worth considering.
http://thingstolucat.com/ski-touring-equipment-guide/

Interesting perspective that bgregoire perhaps touched on (off-topic) in another thread. I wasn't at all focused on this aspect, but more the fact that the current options seem to IMO provide adequate turning ability for light skis.

This is perhaps more interesting, if true. I'm not doing long trips with this type of equipment and I get the feeling not a lot of others are either, so I'd guess that statement about the market being shifted by weekend day trippers to be true. This happens in a lot of markets.

Thing is, I don't notice any of what the author claims at all. I've never had one bit of ice in these bindings and used them in all sorts of temps. Never overnight though. Perhaps that is where the problem lies? Also I don't take my skis off unless I absolutely have to, so my perspective is severely limited. The only thing I know is that sometimes the mech box gets jammed up with snow and won't close fully. I have the same issue with pins sometimes where the plate gets wadded up with snow and I can't get my pins to align or the bale to close. Either require some minor cleaning to get 100% functional again.

I also don't know of ANY boot failures. I don't have as many miles on my boots as some but I see no sign of wear, have no worries about the sole or the toe bar failing. Both seem very well built and solid. I put as much, or more load on it doing some bushwhack XCD than anyone would on a long tour. I can't see a failure happening during the actual K+G operation. I'd guess it's a torquing/twisting type issue.

The only failure that even slightly concerns me with this binding is snapping the sliding hooks jamming the mech closed with some in-compressible snow/ice in there. I believe that is how bgregoire said his failed. I could see any of those mech parts being overstressed in that situation.

So anyway, is this article bull, or is there some evidence to show this is still a thing? Obviously, for most of us, it doesn't appear to be a concern because we're just day trippers. But with regular skiing, day trippers can still rack up the miles.





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athabascae
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Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by athabascae » Sun Mar 27, 2016 9:21 pm

I did multi-day tours in the early 1990s with NNN-BC with a heavy backpack and no issues - and NNN-BC boots and bindings were not nearly as good as those available today. Many others have too.

The current thinking among the Alaska Mountain Wilderness Classic crowd is to ski Voss or Glitterind skis with Dynafit boots and bindings. From what I can gather for the waterproofing plastic boots offer, as those folks ski - by necessity - down and lot of creeks and resultant overflow, which would likely ice up any system binding... Under non-race conditions most of us would avoid overflow like the plague. Also, the author of that piece was essentially using skate ski boots adapted for NNN-BC, not the more rugged NNN-BC boots most of us on this board use....





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bgregoire
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Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by bgregoire » Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:22 pm

Cannatonic wrote: btw there is a guy selling Garmont Tour boots for $100 on ebay, very similar to Antarctic, very good quality. Just search on "garmont leather telemark". He's got the wrong picture of the boots up, but they are brand new. Size 10 and 11 are gone but most of the others are still there. The boots are about 1/2 size larger than he says - I got a pair of 13's and they're more like 13.5. He will give you the exact length of the sole and the Euro size if you ask.
Canna, would you mind posting an ACTUAL picture of the Garmont Tour the guy is selling? I'm interested if they are beefier than that pic on ebay! thanks.
I live for the Telemark arc....The feeeeeeel.....I ski miles to get to a place where there is guaranteed snow to do the deal....TM





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Cannatonic
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Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by Cannatonic » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:55 pm

BG - the boots are the ones in the picture. He updated the pictures recently, he used to have a bigger/heavier model in the pictures. (my boots are still getting stretched at the cobbler)

they are like Crispi Antarctic, maybe a little bit stiffer but similar. Firm support in the heel and ankle but no plastic in there. Good for touring. They look great in real life, very high quality Italian boots. If they fit you it's a great deal. I emailed him and he told me the Euro size of the boots, I would do the same thing to avoid getting the wrong size. Mine were 47.5, probably should have taken the 47's but the extra width will be good.
"All wisdom is to be gained through suffering"
-Will Lange (quoting Inuit chieftan)





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Woodserson
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Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by Woodserson » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:05 pm

Would you say they are more volume than the Antarctics or less? The Antarctics are as wide/high volume as I should go.





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Cannatonic
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Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by Cannatonic » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:00 pm

the fit is about the same as Antarctic, I wouldn't say it's any wider.
"All wisdom is to be gained through suffering"
-Will Lange (quoting Inuit chieftan)





MikeK

Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by MikeK » Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:51 pm

bgregoire wrote:
Cannatonic wrote: btw there is a guy selling Garmont Tour boots for $100 on ebay, very similar to Antarctic, very good quality. Just search on "garmont leather telemark". He's got the wrong picture of the boots up, but they are brand new. Size 10 and 11 are gone but most of the others are still there. The boots are about 1/2 size larger than he says - I got a pair of 13's and they're more like 13.5. He will give you the exact length of the sole and the Euro size if you ask.
Canna, would you mind posting an ACTUAL picture of the Garmont Tour the guy is selling? I'm interested if they are beefier than that pic on ebay! thanks.
How come every thread gets spammed with you looking for boots to buy? 8-)

If you want me to delete things and move things into the OT, I'll start with a lot of this.





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