Fischer S Bound 98 and Madshus Epoch

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MikeK
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Re: Fischer S Bound 98 and Madshus Epoch

Postby MikeK » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:22 pm

Couple more comments lilcliffy -

Although irrelevant to your purchase, the Madshus skis like the Voss and the Glittertind have a different waxless pattern as the Eon, Epoch and Annum.

The MGV+ looks like this:

Image

And well you know what the Omnitrack looks like on the bigger ski:

Image

Again really tough to directly compare due to the camber difference, but the Omnitrack climbs much better IMO.

As far as the Fischer losing grip - I was really 'bouncing' the ski to try to set it and I'm sure I was getting it flat, and it just doesn't have the grip in those conditions that the Madshus had.

On to your questions regarding your next ski:

I'm a little fuzzy on camber and a half because I've never had one or felt one. So I might not recognize it unless someone pointed it out to me. I know the Eon claims to be that, but I've never played with them to compare.

That said, I'm 99% sure the Glittertind is a true double. Why? It is so darn stiff in the last 1/4" of deflection that you'd almost need a vice to get ski to touch ski in the middle... and that has always meant double camber to me. E99's are the same. So it appears that both have a defined wax pocket.

In regard to the Voss - I have not tried them but it seems consistent in that the Madshus skis tend to be softer all around that the Fischer counterparts. I actually like the extra stiffness for kick and glide (as long as I can set the pattern or wax, but I'm over 200lb so even on a long ski that's not usually an issue). For me, for turning, again not a huge issue because I have enough weight to deflect either ski.

As much as I like the quality of Fischer skis (and some of their attributes) - if I was going to buy another ski tomorrow from the backcountry lineups, I'd probably buy a Madshus first and then maybe consider a Fischer if I found a pair for a screaming deal. I only bought the E99's and S bounds because I found good deals on them.

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lilcliffy
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Re: Fischer S Bound 98 and Madshus Epoch

Postby lilcliffy » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:38 am

MikeK- great shots- and great comments.

So it sounds like the Glittertind/E99 traction on hard, icy snow is basicly a traction issue. The double-camber of the Glittertind confirms my assumption.

The Glittertind and Voss seem to have similar designs- double-camber under foot- but relatively soft, forgiving, tips/tails. This IMO/IME is a better combination for backcountry skiing, in variable snow (especially soft snow).

The stiff tip/tail of the E99 (IME the E89 is the same) is about kick and glide efficiency- but IME you cannot effectively use that stiffness to transfer downward force, into grip, unless the snow is hard or dense- otherwise you just end up driving the entire ski deeper into the snow!

In short- I am left with the impression that the Glittertind and the Voss are more versatile backcountry skis than the E89/E99. That being said- the waxable E89 or E99 may actually be just what I am looking for- cruising on dense, hard, snow.

I am with you on finding screaming deals on Fischers. I appreciate the quality European construction- but man do you have to pay for it.

I have enjoyed and appreciated our conversation- thank you.

I am also appreciating your test of the Crispi boots- have been VERY interested in that boot for some time.
The pursuit of XCD balance: cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry

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lilcliffy
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Re: Fischer S Bound 98 and Madshus Epoch

Postby lilcliffy » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:00 am

CIMA wrote:You two guys have done a great job!

The discussion here seems very interesting as myself an owner of S-bound 88, E109 waxless and Glittertind MGV+. I mounted SNS-BC bindings on all of them.
Though E109 and Glittertind are new additions for me and haven't been tested yet, your information is good enough for me imagine the performance of kick & glide.

Since I'm rather a serious XCD downhiller, I'd like to comment on downhill side later in a couple of months. I expect E109 and Glittertind will be good for crud and consolidate snow in spring.

As for downhill performance, I prefer S-bound 88 to Epoch. Though Epoch has slightly wider sidecut in tip and looks advantageous on powder, I prefer stiffer camber of S-bound 88 because it enabled stabler ride to cut through sudden changes of terrain. In addition that camber strength of S-bound gives me a feeling as if I were bouncing on the bed.
powder skiing on SNS/Outtabounds Crown
That is fun!
I don't have compelling reasons for upgrading wider skis like S-bound 98 or Annum for powder. Those would be a little overkill considering the softness of boots.

BTW, if I go for a long walk-oriented tour in mid winter, I would pick E109 or Eon.


CIMA- will be very interested in your testing of the E109 and the Glittertind. I have tried the E109 once- very impressed with it as a relatively wide double-cambered cruising ski (although I find the parabolic sidecut of E109 perplexing in a double-cambered ski- don't know if it would track straight on dense/hard snow). I am interested in either one of these skis as an eventual possible replacement for the Eon. For my typical use I am increasingly realizing that I would probably prefer more camber, snap and glide than the Eon has. I am also decided that I would go back to waxable on a ski for this purpose- light, speed-orientated cruising on relatively dense snow (or at least- not in deep powder). The Glittertind is legendary- and very good value. The E109 is of course a significantly wider ski. You will have to share your experience!

Cool that you are on SNS-BC. I love that binding- unfortunately I have never found an SNS boot that fit me properly. So for my light gear I am on NNNBC- currently with Alpina Alaska boots.

I too have have found noticeably better downhill performance in the S-Bounds- than the Madshus/Karhu XCDs. Although- I have found the Madshus/Karhus to be better on the flats.

My experience on ski width and boot is similar. Over the years I have used a plastic boot with the Annum/Guide- when I am skiing in the mountains.

On a day to day basis- my backyard skiing does not have any extreme slope or vertical to it- so I am using the Annum as a deep powder xcountry ski with NNNBC bindings- don't need as much steering power on my backyard terrain.

Checked out your video link. Beautiful conditions- what's the location?
The pursuit of XCD balance: cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry

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LoveJohnny
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Re: Fischer S Bound 98 and Madshus Epoch

Postby LoveJohnny » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:23 am

GREAT, great stuff guys! Keep it coming!
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MikeK
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Re: Fischer S Bound 98 and Madshus Epoch

Postby MikeK » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:16 pm

I too am intrigued by the 109. It may be my next ski if I can find one cheap. Or it may be an Eon.

The intrigue to me is having a double camber ski that can turn better than the Glittertind.

I may retire my Glittertinds to NNN-BC bindings and only tour them in broken tracks and ski them down sledding hills in powder. They are so much fun for this.

If I went with a 109, that and my S bound 98 would be my main BC skis. One double, one single camber depending on conditions, difficulty and length of the tour.

I'm really starting to find I like the skis in the middle of the xcd range the best - but having a double camber or not is the real deciding factor for me.

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CIMA
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Re: Fischer S Bound 98 and Madshus Epoch

Postby CIMA » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:34 am

lilcliffy wrote:The E109 is of course a significantly wider ski. You will have to share your experience!

All right, I will!
I found that the both skis have much softer cambers than Rossignol BC70 (170, 70-60-65) on which I skied for four years. Whether or not such softness will affect downhill performance positively...that is a question.

lilcliffy wrote:Cool that you are on SNS-BC. I love that binding- unfortunately I have never found an SNS boot that fit me properly. So for my light gear I am on NNNBC- currently with Alpina Alaska boots.

Haven't you ever had any troubles with NNN-BC bindings, such as icing? A friend of mine had that problem once.

lilcliffy wrote:Checked out your video link. Beautiful conditions- what's the location?

It's a closed ski area near my city. The number of ski areas in Japan has decreased by more than half in the past twenty years. Such quasi-BC areas are good spots for practicing XCD. :-)
The flowing river never stops and yet the water never stays the same.

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CIMA
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Re: Fischer S Bound 98 and Madshus Epoch

Postby CIMA » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:46 am

MikeK wrote:I'm really starting to find I like the skis in the middle of the xcd range the best - but having a double camber or not is the real deciding factor for me.

The length and stiffness of the skis affect performance, too.
Actually we can't get too choosy because of low availability of the products in right price range.
We need to compromise somewhere. :-)
The flowing river never stops and yet the water never stays the same.

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MikeK
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Re: Fischer S Bound 98 and Madshus Epoch

Postby MikeK » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:33 am

CIMA wrote:All right, I will!
I found that the both skis have much softer cambers than Rossignol BC70 (170, 70-60-65) on which I skied for four years. Whether or not such softness will affect downhill performance positively...that is a question.


I'm amazed you can ski as well as you do on the BC70. Having skied that ski I know how stiff it is and how much camber it has. I've skied on groomed with it and it actually did pretty well, especially on hills. I would think it would not be so good for powder.

CIMA wrote:Haven't you ever had any troubles with NNN-BC bindings, such as icing? A friend of mine had that problem once.


I've never had any icing problems myself but I have to report this past weekend I helped two ladies, both on different occasions get back into NNN bindings. One had a clump of slush stuck in the binding itself, the other had completely filled the toe of the boot with slush. I passed both by struggling and decided to help.

At any rate, both were easy to fix if you have the slightest mechanical inclination.

Ironically neither commented on the fact that I had different bindings than they did - they simply trusted that I knew what I was doing :D

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MikeK
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Re: Fischer S Bound 98 and Madshus Epoch

Postby MikeK » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:37 am

CIMA wrote:
MikeK wrote:I'm really starting to find I like the skis in the middle of the xcd range the best - but having a double camber or not is the real deciding factor for me.

The length and stiffness of the skis affect performance, too.
Actually we can't get too choosy because of low availability of the products in right price range.
We need to compromise somewhere. :-)


Yes - for me I'd like a 200cm E109. It will surely affect the downhill performance but I need the flotation and the extra glide. This is the ski I'd select for longer tours with less hills.

My S bounds are 189cm, as long as they come. I always ski the longest ski I think I can tolerate. I find they turn excellent though despite the length. This is the ski I'd select for deep snow and/or more steep terrain.

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CIMA
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Re: Fischer S Bound 98 and Madshus Epoch

Postby CIMA » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:07 am

MikeK wrote:I'm amazed you can ski as well as you do on the BC70. Having skied that ski I know how stiff it is and how much camber it has. I've skied on groomed with it and it actually did pretty well, especially on hills. I would think it would not be so good for powder.

I'm using the BC70 for the downhill on consolidated snow mainly.
I like it very much, but it has got worn out a little.
So I bought the Glittertind for backup.
The flowing river never stops and yet the water never stays the same.


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