NNNBC-Magnum

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lilcliffy

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Re: NNNBC-Magnum

Postby lilcliffy » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:52 am

I do think too much! :ugeek:

That is part of why I love backcountry skiing so much- it forces me to simply feeel! 8-)
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LooseHeel

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Re: NNNBC-Magnum

Postby LooseHeel » Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:50 pm

The flotation makes sense. With the soft pivot binding, soft boots, flexy ankles, there would be less leverage forcing tips or tails to sink from an off-balance skier, poor technique, tip dive, stiff binding/boot, etc... The skis are able to ride the way they're meant without extra force levering them under the surface.

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CIMA

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Re: NNNBC-Magnum

Postby CIMA » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:06 pm

After I switched from cable bindings to NNN/SNS, the frequency of my tumbling forward has decreased significantly.
The flowing river never stops and yet the water never stays the same.

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CIMA

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Re: NNNBC-Magnum

Postby CIMA » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:10 pm

lilcliffy wrote:Another difference in your technique is that you at least appear to sit back more than I do in general. Just from watching your videos your telemark articulation appears to be be led by shifting the rear leg.

My telemark technique at least appears to have more of a forward motion than yours. My telemark technique is led by placement and edging of the forward ski- followed by the placement of the rear ski.

I don't realize I'm shifting my rear ski. I'm just trying to keep my foot right under my upper body.
Like the rear-wheel-drive of automobile enables steering through more compact turn than the front-wheel-drive does, weighting on rear ski would have an edge. In addition keeping rear foot right under upper body would lighten up the stress in leg muscle. To do that we should lift your heel as little as possible.

lilcliffy wrote:I do not fully understand your explanation of NNN/SNS facilitating better flotation...

Well, believe it or not, even 169cm S-bound 88 can stay afloat in deep powder as shown in my previous vid.
That would have been very hard if I had been on TLT bindings. :-)
The flowing river never stops and yet the water never stays the same.

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lilcliffy

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Re: NNNBC-Magnum

Postby lilcliffy » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:56 pm

Oh- trust me- I believe that SNS/NNN offers better flotation than 3-pin- I was just hoping that you might elaborate on this.

IME- the flotation advantage of SNS/NNN is very obvious when K&G touring and climbing- as the boot/binding is constantly articulating.

It remains a bit unclear to me how SNS/NNN offers better flotation in a downhill turn...

The leading foot in a telemark is flat on the binding/ski- how would the physics of flotation/tip rise be different on either binding?

The primary performance advantage (for me) with a rigid telemark binding is the increased leverage and steering power- once in the telemark position.

Where I find a huge difference is in the initiation, transition and connection of turns.

If I am striding my way through telemarks- the free articulation of NNNBC definitely improves my balance and flotation (i.e. less forward leverage on ski tips).

If I am steering my way through telemarks- I have not found any negative effect on balance or flotation with heavier and more rigid tele bindings (e.g. 3pc).

Is the difference you are describing primarily found in the turn initiations and transitions- or do you feel you have better balance and flotation with NNN/SNS, while in the telemark position?

Oh- and your videos definitely confirm that the 169cm S-88 is offering you adequate flotation- at least on the downhill. What is the flotation of the 169cm S-88 like on the flats and when climbing?

CIMA- do you mind me asking :oops: - how much do you weigh?
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CIMA

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Re: NNNBC-Magnum

Postby CIMA » Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:24 pm

lilcliffy wrote:The leading foot in a telemark is flat on the binding/ski- how would the physics of flotation/tip rise be different on either binding?

When ski makes advance in powder, its tip rises thanks to the curvature of the tip.
This mechanism holds both in walking and telemarking in powder, and that is the main source of the flotation.
If the force being gained from the powder is constant, the degree of flotation depends on how much we can minimize the resistance force that works against the flotation. The main causes of the resistance force come from the bindings and boots, and the degree of the resistance depends on the strength of the binding cables and the stiffness of the boots.
The NNN/SNS bindings have no cables, and their boots are soft. That gives NNN/SNS an edge over standard telemark setting.

lilcliffy wrote:If I am steering my way through telemarks- I have not found any negative effect on balance or flotation with heavier and more rigid tele bindings (e.g. 3pc).

Is the difference you are describing primarily found in the turn initiations and transitions- or do you feel you have better balance and flotation with NNN/SNS, while in the telemark position?

The freedom of ankles makes the difference. Whether or not we can make the most use of that freedom changes the quickness of maneuvering and the stability of turning.
Of course not, as for the balance. That's why we telemark. :-)
Yes, as for the flotation as explained above.

lilcliffy wrote:What is the flotation of the 169cm S-88 like on the flats and when climbing?

Better than it appears. :-)

lilcliffy wrote:CIMA- do you mind me asking :oops: - how much do you weigh?

62kg or 137lbs.
Too light?
The flowing river never stops and yet the water never stays the same.

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Re: NNNBC-Magnum

Postby Cannatonic » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:02 pm

interesting discussion - just chiming in with my 2 cents - everything is the opposite with me. I spent about 20 years using NNNBC and just tried 3 pin last season and loved it. The last of my skis are getting the NNN's taken off this week. For me, kick & glide striding feels way better with Rottefella ST and leather 3 pin boots. And doing tele turns feels effortless with 3 pin as opposed to sphincter-tightening with system boots, and hopping around like a rabbit at times.

I wonder what 3-pin boots most people are using? Real leather like Crispi and others offer a totally different feel with the ski that plastic and nylon 3 pin boots like Fischer, Rossi, etc. I get a wonderful bounce from the thick leather sole that combines with the cambered ski to propel me forward, where system binding feels more like swinging a dead weight forward.

just another perspective…..

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lilcliffy

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Re: NNNBC-Magnum

Postby lilcliffy » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:20 am

CIMA wrote:
lilcliffy wrote:CIMA- do you mind me asking :oops: - how much do you weigh?

62kg or 137lbs.
Too light?


No- not too light! But- it does make a huge difference in terms of ski width, camber and length. I weigh 35% more than you do. A 165cm ski is going to perform completely differently for you than it is for me. In order to get an equivalent performance in glide/flotation/camber a need a much longer ski. Being light has some significant advantages.

My brother in-law is an extremely skilled and gifted alpine skier. His progress in downhill racing was eventually capped because he is small and very light. However- I have never seen anyone keep up with him in the backcountry!
The pursuit of XCD balance: cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry

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lilcliffy

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Re: NNNBC-Magnum

Postby lilcliffy » Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:19 am

Cannatonic wrote:interesting discussion - just chiming in with my 2 cents - everything is the opposite with me. I spent about 20 years using NNNBC and just tried 3 pin last season and loved it. The last of my skis are getting the NNN's taken off this week. For me, kick & glide striding feels way better with Rottefella ST and leather 3 pin boots. And doing tele turns feels effortless with 3 pin as opposed to sphincter-tightening with system boots, and hopping around like a rabbit at times.

I wonder what 3-pin boots most people are using? Real leather like Crispi and others offer a totally different feel with the ski that plastic and nylon 3 pin boots like Fischer, Rossi, etc. I get a wonderful bounce from the thick leather sole that combines with the cambered ski to propel me forward, where system binding feels more like swinging a dead weight forward.

just another perspective…..


Great to read your perspective man!

I used to be a die-hard traditionalist when it came to light backcountry equipment- 75mm NN- PERIOD.

The exploration of NNNBC began with my young family keeping me at home and primarily backcountry skiing out my backdoor. (my "backyard" backcountry skiing is primarily on gentle to moderate terrain) I had been using NNN on track for many years and then had a chance to try NNNBC with a leather boot in the backcountry...absolutely loved it.

I have to honestly say that when it comes to backcountry-xcountry K&G- I have yet to test drive a 75mm boot/binding setup that can compete with a burly, stable, flexible NNNBC boot/binding.

If I had more vertical in my backyard I may never have given NNNBC an honest chance. There are ski setups I never would have considered either...

As time goes on- I am more and more impressed and content with what I can do on NNNBC.

Your question/comment regarding 75mm 3-pin boots is a good one...you should start a new thread on that one! I would love to read user experiences- I have certainly not abandoned NN yet!

Many of the recent tests of light leather and composite Nordic boots (both NNNBC and 75mm-3-pin) have rated the NNNBC versions as having more stability than their 75mm-3-pin counterparts. (I personally find this a particularly strange design direction- most people that I know are sticking to 75mm-3-pin for potentially greater stability/leverage in the boot/binding)

I have also read many disturbing reports of durability issues and breakdowns with recent 75mm-3-pin boots...

To date I have both NNNBC and 75mm-3-pin setups (probably not the most flexibile and cost effective route to take! :oops: ). But I have not used 75mm-3-pin since my last ski trip/trek in the mountains 3 years ago.
The pursuit of XCD balance: cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry


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