wax vs scales vs XSkin vs klister

[Cannatonic]

interesting, everyone seems to say the 45mm mohair works well on this ski, and Asnes recommends 45mm. I guess you can decide based on how flat it is - totally flat, go with 30mm, some hills, go with 45mm. Don't forget you really need to trim the nylon ones back to the heel pad for decent glide. I've had one day w/ trimmed 35mm nylon skins on the Gamme and the glide wasn't that bad. (I'm sure having 210's helps)

Red wax - after a few experiences with it, I actually threw the red wax away to make sure I'd never be tempted to use it again! It makes a mess almost as bad as klister and never grips. I still like Violet wax, it's more useful.

I've been out on the sleet/graupel a few times this month and wow! The mohair skins are vastly preferable to scales - better glide. I forgot that fischscales can drag quite badly on cruddy, heavy snow. The noise factor is huge too, scales make a terrible racket on any kind of frozen granular snow.

[lilcliffy]

Forgive me if you already spoke to this- how much truly steep (i.e. 60+% slope) climbing you going to want/have to do with that ski?

In other words- you going to climb anything steep enough that the 45mm mohair won't be enough grip?

Also- how much more climbing grip does the 45mm nylon kicker skin really give you- especially on a double-cambered ski?

And- if you want to climb a truly steep slope, wouldn't a climbing skin be a better option than the nylon kicker skin?

I see the value of the nylon kicker skin primarily in extreme XC contexts (e.g. pulling a heavy pulk; extremely harsh abrasive snow) and with a double-cambered ski...

I have been touring on my Gammes for many weeks now- though predominantly with grip and kick wax alone- but, I always carry both the 35mm and the 45mm mohairs with me. The 35mm is almost always enough grip.

I don't know if one can know which two are best without skiing enough terrain, temp and snow conditions to know exactly when each skin is best...
And- then you would have to be able to precisely predict the temperature, snow, and terrain beforehand.

I would suggest that the primary reason why I have been primarily using the 35mm mohair is that I have had almost exclusively very cold, slow snow this winter so far. On warmer, faster, more slippery snow the 45mm is probably best.

As an alternate example, I have been using the 45mm on my Combat Nato and Ingstad BC. Two of my regular skiing partners both bought Ingstad BCs this winter- with the 58mm mohair skin. They both recently ordered the 45mm mohair because they were so jealous of my better kick and glide and equally good climbing with the 45mm.

During early spring skiing, the last few seasons I have been using my Combat Nato with a full 60mm mohair on warm wet afternoon snow- with excellent grip and glide...

What is stopping you from taking all three of the skins?

[lilcliffy]

Can't remember which Scandi site it was- but they were recommending a narrower mohair X-Skin for either pure XC skiing or very cold, slow snow...

[lowangle al]

Red wax - after a few experiences with it, I actually threw the red wax away to make sure I'd never be tempted to use it again! It makes a mess almost as bad as klister and never grips. I still like Violet wax, it's more useful.

The red wax sure does makes a mess of your skis, but it does clean up the dog hair on the trail.

Something to think about regarding skins. If you ever need to traverse steep hard windblown slopes you may need wall to wall kicker skins. With a narrow skin, if the snow is hard enough, only the edge will contact the surface and not the skin and you get no grip at all. Very frustrating. Ski crampons might be the way to go in those conditions but I've gotten by without them.

[fisheater]

I think red wax is pretty nice stuff in regards to the sticky mess department. Unfortunately as I try to milk snow as long as I can I frequently use red/silver. Red/silver is sticky stuff, I need to use the other ski to scrape it off at the trailhead. It is just too sticky and nasty to put in the back of the pickup as usually I have some tools as well. I scrape one ski off with the other and clean the glop off my ski edge with my scraper. I wish I could just use Gamme and a skin, but it looks as though by the weekend I will be dodging rocks. So Gamme sits.

[lilcliffy]

Hey Woods-
What it is your base prep/wax on the Gamme- and what will it be on this tour?
..................
I quite like Swix Red/Silver wax as well- though I try to save it for true early spring snows. I'd rather not have to remove it mid-winter- kicker skin man. If the snow is transformed/re-frozen I find klister more effective.

I keep my red/silver in the freezer.

[Woodserson]

Forgive me if you already spoke to this- how much truly steep (i.e. 60+% slope) climbing you going to want/have to do with that ski?

In other words- you going to climb anything steep enough that the 45mm mohair won't be enough grip?

Also- how much more climbing grip does the 45mm nylon kicker skin really give you- especially on a double-cambered ski?

And- if you want to climb a truly steep slope, wouldn't a climbing skin be a better option than the nylon kicker skin?

I see the value of the nylon kicker skin primarily in extreme XC contexts (e.g. pulling a heavy pulk; extremely harsh abrasive snow) and with a double-cambered ski...

What is stopping you from taking all three of the skins?

Not sure-- rolling terrain. 45mm Mohair would probably be enough. The terrain won't warrant a full-length skin. I keep thinking a nylon backup would be helpful because if it's very warm and wet the mohair really gets wetted out. I didn't ski long enough a few weeks back to really soak the mohair but it seems it stays matted down more when wet, if the whole skin gets wetted-out, will I have any grip? At that point the nylon would be appropriate, no?

Oh, and 2 skins because there has to be some limit-- at what point are you carrying too much on your back?

Hey Woods-
What it is your base prep/wax on the Gamme- and what will it be on this tour?

Funny you should mention, I just swapped out my base set-up yesterday. I've decided to glide wax with polar from the heelplate to the tip, but behind the heel to the tail is glide waxed with Toko red non-fluoro. I've decided this is just a better way to go for most of my skiing. When it's very cold I think an entire base of polar is too slow and the ski behind the heel doesn't offer much in grip anyway. This is minutiae details here, but it makes me feel better.

[Woodserson]

Something to think about regarding skins. If you ever need to traverse steep hard windblown slopes you may need wall to wall kicker skins. With a narrow skin, if the snow is hard enough, only the edge will contact the surface and not the skin and you get no grip at all. Very frustrating. Ski crampons might be the way to go in those conditions but I've gotten by without them.

This is a good thought, and somewhat applicable. I'm such a lazy ass I have definitely used skinny skins on my fat skis and run into this problem, but only for short sections.

I think crampons are too much for a Gamme 54, but I have used the Voile crampons for my touring skis and they are really nice to have when conditions warrant. Really nice. The Voile set-up is actually very nice to use with no moving parts and works better with a tele boot IMO than the hinged crampons.

[lilcliffy]

You are right the mohair skin does absorb/retain water differently than nylon...
They could certainly freeze if you are unable to dry them out during your multi-day trek...
I don't have experience with this as I have always been able to dry out my skins on a multi-day tour, because- to date- all of multi-day tours have been on cold enough snow that it is not wet, and I have used hard kick wax for everything except very steep climbs...

Waxing the skin when it is dry does make a huge difference.

So- it sounds like if its is two skins- the 45mm mohair and the 30mm nylon.
But I would take the time to wax the mohair regularly and try to dry them out- in order to avoid having to use the glideless nylon things.

[bgregoire]

You are right the mohair skin does absorb/retain water differently than nylon...
They could certainly freeze if you are unable to dry them out during your multi-day trek...
I don't have experience with this as I have always been able to dry out my skins on a multi-day tour, because- to date- all of multi-day tours have been on cold enough snow that it is not wet, and I have used hard kick wax for everything except very steep climbs...

Waxing the skin when it is dry does make a huge difference.

So- it sounds like if its is two skins- the 45mm mohair and the 30mm nylon.
But I would take the time to wax the mohair regularly and try to dry them out- in order to avoid having to use the glideless nylon things.

50 days camping out and I do not recall serious issues with my BD nylon/mohair mix kicker skins except the breaky-wacky metal plate which i did not enjoy one bit. There were a few above zeros days in there too by the way. In a pinch, I guess I could always thaw out the skins in my sleeping bag at night and apply wax in the morning (wet or dry)...no biggy there.

If I was only allowed 2 pair (which is generous), i would go mohair kicker and full length mohair. i like to keep my nylon limited to the midsole of my leather boots.