How do you even go uphill?...

[Sidney Dunkin]

I’d say that if you’re getting a kick on the flats but not the uphill you probably need more kick wax. You might need to put more of the same kick wax on, but thicker. You may need to make the wax pocket longer or if you’re not getting any grip at all you may need a softer wax. Also, don’t over cork your kick wax, it will change how it grips.

Kick waxing is an art and may take some trial and error o get it right, especially in temps around freezing or above.

I followed the instructions and added 6 layers but I will try adding more; the skis say they have a deep wax pocket, and I am not sure how that goes.

They climb really good in the single groomed trail.

Six layers sure sounds like it’s enough, but you can still cork it too hard between layers.

[sheep]

What skis are you using;
What length;
What is your all-up weight when skiing;
What is the snow temperature (better measurement), or air temperature;
What wax are you using?

Åsnes Combat nato
210
85kg
around -28C to -30C air (that day)
Swiss something blue, I know, but this -30C stuff is kinda odd it will turn back to normal and to be fair it had far too much grip in the flats.
I replicate in -6C the other day anyway.

[sheep]

As I learned here, remove all the glide wax. Go back with Swix White Polar on the glide zone. Iron it in if you want. Crayon it on thick and hit it with 140 degrees on the iron. (Sounds weird but it's fine.) Grip wax as normal. In certain conditions it'll really help your grip wax stick! But, if the temperature goes below about 10 deg F the Swix Polar will start to stick and you've effectively grip waxed your entire ski! It sucks. Ask me how I know.

Get some skins. I especially like the Asnes XSkins that index into those two little holes 18" or so in front of your toes. They do fine over cold and medium grip waxes. As the waxes get softer, they may bleed into the glue. Don't use over Klister! It's a learning game.

It gets under -10F quite often here, however it averages around -10C

I have Xskins, but I am trying to learn without skins first.

It's just odd, no matter how much I try, whatever I do; I must try rewaxing to see what's up.

And I think I busted a finger, now I need rest.

[aclyon]

I think, if it's "too much for the flats"... then we can eliminate the grip wax factor-- you've obviously got enough on there to climb.

it's likely just skill. when i was first starting i went to a steep hill, and just did repeats-- learning to climb better every time, doing terrible wedge christie turns down cus it's all i knew.

just try to engage the grip zone more. heel down, tips up, like clown shoes walking. on less steep grades you can glide over them, at a certain point you just need to dig your heels in or switch to the h-bone. imagine you have fish scales, and you want that shape to dig into the snow.

good luck! you're going to figure it out.

[Lhartley]

What skis are you using;
What length;
What is your all-up weight when skiing;
What is the snow temperature (better measurement), or air temperature;
What wax are you using?

Åsnes Combat nato
210
85kg
around -28C to -30C air (that day)
Swiss something blue, I know, but this -30C stuff is kinda odd it will turn back to normal and to be fair it had far too much grip in the flats.
I replicate in -6C the other day anyway.

You may be a bit light for that ski at that length. There's a trend around here to recommend the longest ski possible in the asnes lines, not always great advice for folks learning. Perhaps you are not compressing the grip pocket. Just a thought.

[tkarhu]

@sheep I think 15 degrees is just quite steep for herringboning. Especially, when snow is soft. At some point you just need to move to side stepping. I would side step 20 degrees, but herringbone 15’ personally maybe. Like @CwmRaider suggests, traversing is also a good idea, and you can combine it with side stepping.

Wax pockets are kindof a hard ground thing IMO. Deep snow does re-shape to fill your wax pockets. Maybe snow will compress a little more near tip and tail in deep snow, but glide and grip areas are not as articulated as on hard ground.

In old school wooden skis you put tar tip to tail. That was the era, when deep snow skiing was still mainstream. Anecdote, in Finland roads were built to many Northern villages (e.g. Kainuu) as late as the 1960’s. So for deep snow, grip wax at tip and tail may make sense, like people did in old times.

I would maybe totally skip glide wax, and put grip wax wherever you need it. You could try just keeping your glide areas clean with bronze and nylon brushes, to brush away any accumulated dirt. Your glide areas should have an even black color. Or then put grip wax on top of glide wax. It may also be a good thing if it wears out, because you do not always want tip and tail grip.

I think you will do fine with the 210 cm NATO’s gripwise. However, I find long skis with steel edges a bit annoying for herringboning. I am 180 cm, and my 200 cm Gammes have horrible sceatches at tail top sheets. However, my Falketinds are 196 cm, and I do not feel their tails hitting as much each other as with Gammes, when herringboning. So, body length +15 cm may be longest nice length for herringboning, if your skis have steel edges. Maybe another reason why relatively short skis are nice for steeps?

[randoskier]

Get a pair Of Fischer Travers 78 skis. They have great climbing scales and a clip-in EZ skin if you need more traction. Much easier for a beginner than learning the vagaries of waxing.

[Stephen]

@sheep, lots of good advice posted for climbing.
Quick summary of what sounded good to me:
- Make sure you are putting 100% weight on each foot as you move forward (don’t shuffle your feet, with weight on both feet);
- press your climbing foot firmly into the snow and hold all your weight on it;
- make sure your step length is not too long;
- start with a slope you CAN climb and gradually increase the angle to learn skill and limits;
- clean your skis off with a solvent, especially to get the glide wax off, then, if you have SWIX Polar, cork a layer of that on the ski, tip to tail;
- then, cork the right wax for the snow temp on the wax pocket and try that;
- if not enough grip, keep adding wax toward the tip of the ski and test (you could go all the way to the tip of the ski);
Learning to wax takes some time to figure out what works, and even people who are really experienced have grip problems sometimes, but I think you will get it figured out.

[lilcliffy]

Hello Sheep!
Happy New Year and great to hear from you again- though I wish you sounded happier with your Nordic ski touring!

Let's see if I can contribute and help you in some way...

I will start where I started last time-
is there not someone(s) locally that can help you with learning this?
SURELY there is a small "army" of local Finns that could do this in their sleep and help you out with this?!?

I've been learning to ski these days, and I just have no clue how I am supposed to go uphill; I am using the combat nato, kick wax + slide wax; but I kind of feel I should've just use only kick wax because the moment the terrain gives me only support for the top and bottom of the ski, the moment I lose all grip.

Please explain in detail your base preparation-
Where have you applied grip/kick wax? Starting and ending where- precisely- on the ski base?
Where have you applied glide wax? Starting and ending where- precisely- on the ski base?

Which grip/kick wax(es) are you applying- and in what amount/layers?
Which glide wax(es) are you applying- and how are you treating/prepping the glide wax?

What temperature is the snow?
What condition is the snow in? Fresh? Old? Depth? Layered? Crust? etc.

But on an uphill, nothing other than walking sideways works; herringbone may as well break my legs after both skis just slide on top of each other anyway, pushing my legs together and going down anyway no matter how much I push that metal edge; and I can't do wider because then I just step onto the skis in the back.

I personally, will not use the herringbone technique when backcountry ski touring (I do on a Classic groomed track- with track-prepped Classic ski). My rule is that if I need to herringbone up a hill I need to change something- although I do (if appropriate/effective) lift my skis off the snow when skiing downhill- I do not lift my skis off the snow when striding on the flats and climbing in the backcountry. IMO, herringbone techniqie is a massive waste of energy when backcountry touring, ESPECIALLY in truly deep snow.

When the conditions are ideal- you wouldn't believe the slope one can climb on grip wax alone.

15 degree gradient

Are you speaking of a 15 degree or 15% slope?

that's just a couple of meters long?... I thought the skins were for longer sustained climbing efforts; it's getting frustrating, because the terrain is up and down, nothing extreme and while the downs are fine, I am doing black magic to go up, the sheer amount of arm and core strength I am using, the poles will break at this rate, this can't be right.

You are correct- this cannot be "right".
Hopefully we can help you-
but, I must say that trying to give technique-based advice on a discussion forum is a bit of crap show...
While I can do my best to respond to what you describe-
I am not going to try and give you skiing technique instruction in this medium- I would need to be there with you to be of any real help I'm afraid...
But, I can (and will) try and effectively respond to what you describe.
I'm sorry to hear that this is frustrating at the moment. It takes time and a lot of practice to get good at doing anything- especially when you do not have an effective mentor/teacher on site with you...
Gareth

[lilcliffy]

the skis say they have a deep wax pocket, and I am not sure how that goes.

The Combat NATO does not- relatively speaking- have a "deep wax pocket"- perhaps compared to a downhill/Alpine ski- but not for a Nordic touring ski.