The NNN/BC Truth Thread

[dnt_upton]

You'd have to switch bindings L&R and take your weak leg out of the equation...

A strike against 3 pins in this match up -- that cannot be done without swapping the 3 pin bindings on that ski as there is a left and a right binding.

[MikeK]

Yes I knew he would have to remount the 75mm but I doubt we'll get any data anyway...

Actually if he mounts a set of NNN his Epochs, which I think are 185s, and I see him this winter, I can have him try this with my wife's Epochs, which are 185s with pins.

I don't have to do the test to know who will win. The boots, despite being the same model, are so vastly different the bindings will be of little impact (I've owned both the NN and NNN Alaska).

Even my 'heavy duty', new style 3 pin leathers have less torsional stiffness in the sole than the Alaska NNN. Next step up would be the Excursion and that's a much stiffer boot, although in terms of modern telemark, it's the softest.

This provides a fair bit of continuity between telemark and XCD, but some people don't consider the Excursion an XCD boot...

[Teleman]

Don't get caught up in torsional anything when putting on your boots....Mike you seem to want to be in the bush.....Out there it's much more about finesse than power....Also what kind of boots do you have that do not have traditional leather properties.....Honestly I have some double buckle leathers and some lace ups....From low and slow to steep and fast there isn't much difference once you have the feel....The boys get together each week for sauna and Horseshoes/pool.....Teleking can't usually get rid of his one plus one equals two....he is always mathematically adding things up in his head....Easy to beat....BUT....when into the beer....or when he breaks lose he becomes fluid and that becomes a problem....Same in BC tele....He transforms.....He becomes a flowing intuitive dynamite skier....It's a place where he becomes him.....Teleking!!!!! TM

[MikeK]

Don't get caught up in torsional anything when putting on your boots....Mike you seem to want to be in the bush.....Out there it's much more about finesse than power....

Maybe exactly my point in a roundabout way. I know Johnny can ski the 75mm Alaska up to a 109 shovel without much issue, so I don't expect him to have much issue with the NNN Alaska. The difference is probably a lot less than everyone might think, and maybe even favoring the NNN setup... but I'm not so sure about that on the wider skis... no data really.

Also what kind of boots do you have that do not have traditional leather properties.....Honestly I have some double buckle leathers and some lace ups....From low and slow to steep and fast there isn't much difference once you have the feel....

I'm pretty novice at turning xc skis, so everything feels different to me. Some feels easier, some feels more difficult. And for the most part it makes perfect sense why. It usually relates back to a few simple things and the conditions... some snow is just easier than others!

I'm sure someday it won't matter much to me and I'll probably enjoy the nuances of either, actually I do now... but maybe even more so. The more you get into something, the more it can go that way... or it just starts to all seem the same... depends on how the mind works.

The boys get together each week for sauna and Horseshoes/pool.....Teleking can't usually get rid of his one plus one equals two....he is always mathematically adding things up in his head....Easy to beat....BUT....when into the beer....or when he breaks lose he becomes fluid and that becomes a problem....Same in BC tele....He transforms.....He becomes a flowing intuitive dynamite skier....It's a place where he becomes him.....Teleking!!!!! TM

I've seen a video of Teleking skiing. He's very good. Very smooth and fluid. Much better than I could hope to be.

Funny thing is I know exactly what you mean about TK adding things up in his head. But to get to that state where you let go of thought you need a base of muscle memory and reactions. That takes practice. And time. I know it when it comes, but sometimes it's a long road to get there.

[Teleman]

Pretty much Mike any leather boot will turn ANY ski....but why bother....Say it again, threw my downhill stuff away in the early 70's....Been on light and skinnier stuff since...At the dawn of TTE (the tele era)...all we had was Nordic skinnies and then the all time ski...an e99....Learned on those suckers and still have wonderful rides on them....But those S Bounds aren't all that bad....easier to ski...slower....easier to turn....But if short it forces one to have a less elongated stance....That's why we like the 189's as they are the longest that they make....Light easily turned powder ski....(or soft corn)....What you call repeated muscle memory....possible but we would call it confidence that you can under certain conditions do as you want and the skis do as you will....Been doing this so long that you look at a drop and see instantly where to head them, how to fly into the deeps for slowing down, come up out of a trough on a steep bank and use the double camber to pop out of the trough and turn while the skis are energized into a new setting....We KNOW it's there....And the beat rolls on....and on....down snow breaking over your knee.....off your waist....up your shoulder....a puff of white and off you go again....Man been hearing snow....Finally Mike I have taught tele turns for the BC like this....Open bc slope....Any angle you like....Aim the skis down at a comfortable angle....going right...right little toe and left foot big toe angle the ski into the fall line....let the skis turn...other than the big toe and little toe do nothing.....Skis will come around....Repeat....again If you fall over right to much lean....Feel like that don't lean just drop your weight....remember only big and little toe and let the skis come around by themselves....no real pressure....E99's come around very slowly....Rebounds quite fast....Go back up repeat the other way....Taught my son in law that way.....Next year at Alta.....A lift way up somewhere had just opened up and there seemed to be people trying to get to it....As luck would have it off we went....Got off and there was powder and Rastatele took off stopped in a steep zone and yells to me as I shoot by....what to I do now????....'DON'T FAAAAAAAAAAAALL"......snicker....TM

[MikeK]

Sure every ski turns... just the technique to do so and on what snow has a big impact. Those long, skinny, heavily cambered skis that are 'real' xc skis turn... if you step, jump, stem or lift your inside foot... a really, really, really good skier could probably get them to almost carve a tele arc. In perfect snow and on not too steep a slope a mediocre skier can make them come around smoothly.

We all should be able to recognize some of the basic physics that have been gone over ad nauseam on ski forums. Humans are surprisingly adaptable, so it's no surprise there are always outliers or exceptions.

Speaking from my perspective: I'm not an exceptional skier. So what a very good skier can do may not be what I can do. The fact of the matter is most people doing this sort of thing aren't getting lessons from pros. They may have some ski experience either in nordic or alpine, but when they combine them or venture away from the smooth, predictable conditions of the resort or ski center, it becomes a different game. Likely if you were an all-star at both of those, you'll be more likely to adapt to skiing off-piste than most. I'm just giving a perspective of the average schmuck who wants to have fun on skis away from the resort. If it's hard for me, it'll probably be hard for another average schmuck reading. A highly decorated ski instructor may say it's not, but does he/she really represent the norm? Someone who has been doing it for 20 years may say it's not... but again, is that really who the forums are for? Sure, some old dogs can learn new tricks...

It is however nice to see very exceptional skiers and what they can accomplish on gear. It gives some perspective of what is possible. None of us may ever obtain that, but maybe we get close enough to get by.

And I've always said that there is way too much focus on turning... until I really need to turn to avoid smashing my face into a tree... then I wonder why I didn't put more emphasis on it in the first place!

Beginner/Intermediate skiers need to turn to avoid stuff and control speed. That's goal number one. Beyond that, it's advanced technique that is for added grace, fun, control, etc... BUT really it's the CONFIDENCE that you can make it down something in control. And then learn to do it better and better.

[Teleman]

"Turn out Tele".....Fundamental 101....Same as a parallel hockey turn coming to a stop....Hockey stop by turning parallel throwing ice to a stop. Just doooo it!!!!! This skill allows anybody to zig across any face in control...Slide off, build some slow speed, turn into the fall line come to a stop....This is the one skill that allows decent access to the world of BC....Your in control....you can stop....Linking turns is down the road....Don't waste your time at a ski area....If your into BC skiing learn in the BC....Remember a Telemark ISN'T a modified parallel as most do on downhill tele stuff....It's an elongated stance that has you riding ONE long ski....And the little tip of turn out tele is the key....Took us a long time to go from that to an ability to link the turns with confidence....That doesn't mean we won't thwack a tree, boulder, of get face slapped by whips....heh....Telekid just got hammered by skiing close to Blackberry bushes....The thorns kicked his ... Nature in the backyard! TM

[MikeK]

"Turn out Tele".....Fundamental 101....Same as a parallel hockey turn coming to a stop....Hockey stop by turning parallel throwing ice to a stop. Just doooo it!!!!! This skill allows anybody to zig across any face in control...Slide off, build some slow speed, turn into the fall line come to a stop....

I actually agree with you quite a bit on this, but it's not that easy in most situations.

Very familiar with this from Alpine skiing... problem is, I've found, is that in most snow I don't have the power to do a hip twisting hockey stop with 190cm skis and leather boots. And if I do on icy crusty crap, and I catch an edge wrong... I don't like that either. Usually means I'm going to fall and smash my face on hard snow.

First important lesson I learned BC XC a few years back:

I had been relying on the old snowplow from my xc skiing experience but I happened to be out on a day, later in the year, maybe early spring in some mashed potatoes snow. I was on a relatively mild tour but got to a section of woods that was on a hillside with multiple fall lines, some very steep. The ups and downs were pretty short, but technical in that there wasn't a lot of room to maneuver (trees, stumps, etc). I found out in this situation I simply did not have the power to put my skis in a wedge. They wanted to go dead straight no matter what. I was also sinking deep enough in the snow that stepping was nearly impossible (also it was tight quarters). I was absolutely miserable. Floundered in that terrain for about an hour and decided to turn back and ski my tracks out.

After that incident I decided I needed to up my skill. There must be an easier way to make skis maneuver in that heavy, 3D snow... enter the telemark!

I think what you are meaning is getting the skis to arc around and turn yourself back up the fall line to come to a stop? Like I say, skidding is nearly impossible in some snow especially with soft boots, so this has been my strategy. Don't always work though for various reasons:

First one is usually lack of space. You find your self coming down a narrow chute with rocks on one side and trees on the other. Throwing the skis into a turn will most likely just get your hurt.

Second one is getting going too fast... you got out of control in the first place and it's hard to set and edge, and if you do, you'll probably lose your balance.

In either of those situations I usually try to ride it out and scrub speed however I can. You might take a tumble... so just aim away from the rocks. Other times I've snaked down through stuff like that dodging rocks and logs cropping up from the snow and barely stayed up only to fall when I've gotten to safety! Other times I've been beelining in an old track in hard, unbreakable crust and tried to make a maneuver at speed only to have the tips dive and toss me on my face.

Either way, all this has little to do with boots and bindings...

[lilcliffy]

"....Don't waste your time at a ski area....If your into BC skiing learn in the BC....Remember a Telemark ISN'T a modified parallel as most do on downhill tele stuff....It's an elongated stance that has you riding ONE long ski....

With you all the way man, all the way!

[Teleman]

Mike reality check.....Your doing the 1+1=.....Find a slope in the BC that is open enough for YOU....Your NOT pushing.....your not stomping.....your not jumping....Just elongate.....double pole, (Chuckle), Your starting across the fall line....just push a little then little toe big toe and let the skis come around....Very little pressure....the skis WILL come around....Biggest problem is you might lean to much which means you will fall over softly....Correct that by doing the above and drop your weight slightly....THE SKIS WILL COME AROUND!!!!!!! Corn or powder is perfect....Powder might need to head them slightly more down, corn slightly less.....enjoy....TM