good kick and glide 75mm binding?

[MikeK]

The Svartisen (MikeK, please confirm) bends quite like most softer injection molded 75 mm boots (that means, probably softer than your Asolo's).

It's about the same forward flex as any leather boot I've tried... soft.

[bgregoire]

It's about the same forward flex as any leather boot I've tried... soft.

There are some serious flex differences between the stiffer norwegian welt boots and injection molded ones, leather or not. I am assuming here you are comparing the Svartisen flex to other leather injection molded 75mm boots?

PS: try out the Ross BC X12, you will be surprised how stiff they are in to sole. I am also expecting (hoping!) my incoming Karhu XCD Descents will have a stiffer flex. All other injeciton molded 75mm though (including Alaska & Alfa Quest Advance) are SOFT.

This BOF flex comparison between 75mm boots is something I have been thinking of starting a thread on in the last few days. I'm working on it.

[MikeK]

I'd say my snowpines are similar, but when I've tried new, non-broken in Norwegain welted boots they felt really, really stiff in that respect. I guess I assumed they get more like my snowpines would over time.

They might be a little stiffer than the Alaska 75mm in that respect, but honestly, I hardly notice that. I really notice how a boot twists more than anything. All my leathers feel free in the forward direction and I mainly am using NNN and on my wider skis, pins w/o cables.

For K+G you can't beat NNN - the forward resistance is perfect.

[bgregoire]

I'd say my snowpines are similar, but when I've tried new, non-broken in Norwegain welted boots they felt really, really stiff in that respect. I guess I assumed they get more like my snowpines would over time.

They might be a little stiffer than the Alaska 75mm in that respect, but honestly, I hardly notice that. I really notice how a boot twists more than anything. All my leathers feel free in the forward direction and I mainly am using NNN and on my wider skis, pins w/o cables.

For K+G you can't beat NNN - the forward resistance is perfect.

Can you think of any advantage to be found in a 75mm boot that can twist?

I can't really, myself. I'm also thinking a softer sole usually translates in a twistier boot (at the toe box anyways) due to construction....

[MikeK]

No - the twist is definitely an unwanted side effect (I guess that was my roundabout point).

I tend to think of the forward flex stiffness as something you don't want because it can induce heel lift.

But not all injection molded boots have the same torsional flex... another point.

I've yet to put on a modern leather boot that didn't feel naturally flexing for K+G, except the Crispi Mountain. It was very stiff out of the box but Can said if it is like the Antarctic, which I assume it would be, it softens up once it breaks in.

The injection molded ones, IMO, don't seem to change stiffness much with break-in.

Here is another point of contention:

I thought the Alaska NNN boot felt great right out of the box. Johnny said his felt really stiff trying to flex the sole and felt they loosened up after a couple weeks.

Were the boots different? I doubt it. More likely it was our perception of that aspect.

[bgregoire]

No - the twist is definitely an unwanted side effect (I guess that was my roundabout point).

I tend to think of the forward flex stiffness as something you don't want because it can induce heel lift.

But not all injection molded boots have the same torsional flex... another point.

I've yet to put on a modern leather boot that didn't feel naturally flexing for K+G, except the Crispi Mountain. It was very stiff out of the box but Can said if it is like the Antarctic, which I assume it would be, it softens up once it breaks in.

The injection molded ones, IMO, don't seem to change stiffness much with break-in.

Here is another point of contention:

I thought the Alaska NNN boot felt great right out of the box. Johnny said his felt really stiff trying to flex the sole and felt they loosened up after a couple weeks.

Were the boots different? I doubt it. More likely it was our perception of that aspect.

I dare say a stiff forward flex does aid in controlling the skis and teleing on the down. My excursions are stiff!

[MikeK]

Oh I'd agree with out on that. It's the same principle as with adding resistance via a cable OR adding an active cable.

I just don't feel much of a difference with the boots I own, that was what I was saying. Others may be more sensitive to it. I bet if I but cables on I'd feel a much bigger difference.

There are two effects as far as I can tell:

Forward stability
Activity or weight transfer to the tip of the ski

Forward stability seems rather obvious. The more resistance to heel lift, the more closely it approximates having fixed heels and the less likely you'll feel like you are going to face plant.

Activity, as I understand it, transfers more weight to the front of the ski, making it initiate a turn better. I can understand why people like this because I find one of the hardest thing about telemarking with 'neutral' bindings (I know nothing else mind you) is getting the rear ski to carve. Sometimes it wants to just go straight, other times it wants to chatter, and it seems on hardpack, skid.

For XCD I almost always consider we'd be skiing on something neutral, plastic boots or not. But really it's not the case. Lot's of people are using cables and free pivots. I know this is a point of contention, but some of us consider that lite telemark and not XCD. I don't want to fight that battle. But point is, there is a difference between a plastic boot in a pin binding and using cables or springs. Neither of it makes for a nice, traditional K+G, so that's why some tend to think of it as lite tele rather than XCD. Semantics. Like I say, point is there is some difference in how the rear ski is loaded when you drop your knee.

[bgregoire]

Mike,

you've got me thinking. You know, I just got those Alfa Quest Advance 75mm. They are comfy, finally, something for my wide feet. my ankle stays put, but they are soft up front and they twist quite a bit. I was thinking first of experiment with a DIY carbon fiber innersole to stiffer it up. But now, I might first try skiing them with the cables on. It just me be...interesting?

[MikeK]

The cable in theory shouldn't give a lot of torsional stiffness BUT you may like the feel of it. It's always worth a try.

I really think the biggest thing is getting weight to the rear skis edge. If the cable helps, then use it!

Personally, I think you can do it with any ski, with any boot, it's just really, really hard in some cases. It's rather hard to do with boots that are a good match.

[dakartoubab]

I'm hoping to resurrect this string around a suggestion by Connyro, namely, the Burnt Mtn Spike



It seems that telemark bindings evolved kind of like this: you begin with a 3-pin flimsy toe-cage with no cable. Then, thinking it will add some lateral stiffness, you add a cable. You realize that the heel cable really doesn't add anything. Along come stiff-as-hell plastic boots and then you conclude that the trick to torsional rigidity is to marry the toe of your stiff, plastic boot with a burly, bomb-proof toe cage. At this point, it dawns on you that you don't really need the 3 pins but then how are you going to keep the boot on? Back comes the heel cable. You add all kinds of bells and whistles to the heel cable assembly (various stiffness springs, etc) but the reality is that it's all about the toe piece. How "active" a binding is comes down to how far back the pivot point is - also a function of the toe piece.
With my "drunk history" version above, it seems like the 3-pin Spike is the perfect NOT-double-black-diamond-back-country-binding. Beefy toe cage w/ no resistance for kick-and-glide. This plus a Crispi Svartisen boot plus (insert waxless ski here). What's not too like about this????