New skis (for when Ingstad WL do not work)

[LaplandPaul]

Hej telemark talk community!

First of all, I want to thank you to everyone on this forum here. You provide so much knowledge and reviews and I spent hours here reading through many topics.

Let me first introduce myself a little bit: I live now in the north of Sweden, near the arctic circle and have had only downhill skiing experience until last year as I am originally from Austria. I got my fist xcd skies last year after trying rentals a few times. Based on recommendation on the forum here and from my local ski shop, I went with Åsnes Ingstad 205 WL and got nylon and mohair skins for climbing (I weigh 80kg). I used them on a multi day cabin trip with a 10kg backpack to the mountains in spring last year when temperatures were above 0°C and was relatively happy with the skies (considering my non existing skills). However, this year I used them a lot over frozen lakes and in forrests with snow that was unfortunately often covered with an icy layer. On other occations it was very fluffy but cold snow (-10°C or colder). Although there are hardly any inclines, I have problems getting good grip on both these conditions with the waxless base. I have had some knee surgeries in recent years and whenever I do a trip now where I slip often due to the not so good grip when kick-and-glide-ing, I get knee pain form the instability I think. I should have gotten the Ingstads one size smaller I assume, with a heavy pack they work better. My girlfriend has Fischer EXCURSION 88 CROWN in 178 and boy do they feel different! I get soooo good grip and I never get knee pain form them. However, they are of course too soft for my weight and there is not much glide. I also tried rental Madshus BC 50 waxless 200 and they also worked much better for me with better kick and glide on a frozen lake without heavy backpack. Sooo my coclusions from this season so far... I need new skies!

So I thought I could get your expertice on what could work best for me! I do not care about downhill performance and I do not need the widest ski as I allready have the Ingstad. I ofter go ice fishing on lakes with a little pulk on compacted, wind blown snow with sometimes crusts. I also like to wander around in flat forrests and maybe will do some tours in spring in the mountains where we often go on snowmobile tracks. I do not really want to learn how to apply grip wax to my skies, but I am open to try it if you think it makes sense. I was thinking of something like the Amundsen Fram Waxless 194 or Fischer Traverse 78 Crown 189. They should not replace the Ingstads but rather complement them, when I do not have a heavy backpack, there is no deep snow, there is crust on the snow, or when I just want to go on lakes for fishing whith no grip issues and no requirements for perfect technique. An easy ski that goes straigh forward on all kinds of not too deep snow.

Oh and my boots are Alfa Guard Advance if that is important. And I attached some fotos of the snow I typically want to ski.

I am curiouse to hear what you think

[Transplantskier]

I was thinking of something like the Amundsen Fram Waxless 194 or Fischer Traverse 78 Crown 189. They should not replace the Ingstads but rather complement them, when I do not have a heavy backpack, there is no deep snow, there is crust on the snow, or when I just want to go on lakes for fishing whith no grip issues and no requirements for perfect technique.

From what you've said, I would strongly suggest that you NOT get the waxless Fram. The Åsnes scale pattern is heavily oriented toward good glide, and I expect you'd find the grip lacking on the Fram just like on the Ingstad.

I personally like the Åsnes scale pattern a lot, but it requires fairly active technique at the best of times and can be frustrating in conditions when other waxless skis grip much better. It is definitely not the best waxless pattern for relaxed outings.

[fledersau]

Wilkommen!
Sieht wunderschön aus bei dir!

I changed from last winter on Madshus M62 to Ingstads Waxless for this winter and while i prefer the ingstad almost everywhere i clearly see a lack in grip, especially whenn it's powdery (we don't have much ice here in foresty québec)...
The Madshus Waxless pattern is way longer than the asnes pattern, but as well made (double type of pattern).

I hope that may help you.

[wabene]

The Fisher Transnordic 66 crown might be a good choice. Not as wide as the 78 but still stable. Enough camber to get good glide, but still good grip with that Fischer Crown pattern. This is the same class of ski as the Åsnes Gamme, so a really good all around fjellski. I do think Fischer is making a mistake by not putting the Easy Skin attachment on the 66. The Gamme is a great ski if you are willing to wax. It is an easy ski to get the kick wax right on because the camber is more relaxed than track skis. The advantage on the Gamme, besides just being a well designed go anywhere ski, is the X-Skin. The other day it was around freezing, getting warmer after a horrible all day February rain (why?), so bad kick wax conditions. My friend had my crown skis so I grabbed the Gamme and put on mohair skins. Very nice, good kick and fast glide.

[LaplandPaul]

Thank you for your replys and help!

I was hoping the Fram might give enough grip when I choose a short enough lenght. Also I could have used the skins I allready have. But from your comments I think I will go for Fischer Crown! If it is icy, I could still go with the Ingstads + 45mm mohair I guess?

The Transnordic 66 crown sounds interesting! What length should I go for? (I weigh 80kg without gear)
200: 65-85kg or 205: 75-95kg ?

[wabene]

I would go 205 for sure. That crown will grip it's the glide your after on this ski.

[Jurassien]

I am originally from Austria................and was relatively happy with the skies (considering my non existing skills).

An Austrian who claims he doesn't ski well!.......That's a bit like an Eskimo claiming he has never seen snow!

Jokes aside, you clearly would like to stick with waxless and Fischer make skis with a good waxless pattern (and they're Austrian too!). The Åsnes Amundsen is a classic Fjellski, straight and narrow and designed to cover long distance, rather than being turn-friendly. The Fischer equivalent of this is the E99 (now Transnordic 66) and has been available in various incarnations since the 70's. I have them in both waxable and waxless versions and have had very good experience with both types. Since the ski is a classic and universally known, it should be possible for you to find a rental or to borrow a pair to try out. For the type of terrain depicted in your photos, the narrower version (E89 - now Transnordic 59) would also be suitable and has the added advantage of not dragging in machine-prepared loipe (the E99 drags). For bindings, take the Rottefella NNN BC Manual in the standard width (not Magnum) - especially if you choose the narrower ski. On hard icy surfaces, short skins ("Easy Skin") will give you better grip than fishscales, and full-length skins even more so.

In view of your knee problems, I would choose a length which has optimal camber for your net body weight plus normal ski clothing and without rucksack. For the E99/Transnordic 66 and the E89/Transnordic 59 this should be about 200cm. You might find the 205cm to be too stiff and the 195cm too soft - but nothing beats trying them out in a shop, if you have the opportunity.

Be aware, however, that the two skis mentioned are not turn-friendly.

[lilcliffy]

Hello LaplandPaul!
Welcome!
Thank you for joining us- I very much enjoyed reading your description of your Nordic ski touring in Northern Sweden- please stay in touch and continue sharing your ski story with us!

For reference I am a little heavier than you.

Reading your description- and examining your photos- of the skiing context that you are looking to fill with a new touring ski-

I would advise against a ski with rocker.

I think that at least some of your problems with the Ingstad in the context you describe is related to the significant shovel rocker on the Ingstad- especially in difficult/challenging, icy snow and/or breakable crust.

The current Fischer E99/TN66 Xtralite design also has a significantly rockered and a very soft shovel- I find this ski very unstable in deep snow, and terrible in breakable crust- it also does not break trail very effectively. Older non-rockered designs of the E99 are more versatile in my opinion and experience.

The current E99/TN66 XL is in my experience the easiest ski to turn in this "class" (Asnes Gamme 54; Madshus 55), but I don't think you need (as you have already stated) an easy-turning ski in this context.

If you want a waxless ski, I would get the Fischer 78, in the longest length- if you want to break fresh tracks in variable snow conditions. The 78 is less rockered than the TN66-XL (weird eh?) and has about as much rocker as one can get away with in a Nordic touring ski, and still break trail efficiently. Although I actually "like" the E99/TN66 better than the 78- I must admit that the 78 is a more versatile design than the current E99/TN66. Plus, you get both the Off-Track Crown and the Easy-Skin insert!

As an aside the non-rockered shovels of the Asnes Amundsen and Combat NATO are much better trail-breakers than the 78- but not available with Fischer's excellent Off-Track Crown.

If you are able to test some less-rockered Asnes WL skis-
Finnmark WL
Breidablikk WL
↑Neither of which will offer the scale-grip of Fischer's Off-Track Crown.

I don't see a scaled version of the Madshus 55 "MGV" anymore?

Personally I would be grip waxing for the skiing context you describe...

Again- welcome!
Gareth

[LaplandPaul]

An Austrian who claims he doesn't ski well!.......That's a bit like an Eskimo claiming he has never seen snow!

haha, the cliche is actually not so wrong, I was in a local skiing club doing competitve ski races when I was young But that was alpine downhill skiing... with xc / xcd skies I don't really know what I am doing


So a little update, I actually drove to my local ski shop after reading the recommendation about the TN66 and who would have known: they had both 200 and 205 in stock and 50% off. Interestingly, the lable on the 205 ski stated 70-89kg as recommended weight. Also the BC Manual was 30% off... So I just went for it and now I have them at home, waiting for their first ride!! Not sure why the Fischer website suggested 75-95kg.

Thank you also lilcliffy for the welcome! A little unfortunate that I did not wait to read your post...

Although I actually "like" the E99/TN66 better than the 78

Why that?

The current Fischer E99/TN66 Xtralite design also has a significantly rockered and a very soft shovel

I actually think it is good for me to have the soft shovel, let me explain: last year on the skiing trip in spring, I followed several km of snow mobile tracks. However, they where not flat but had very frequent bumps, like 2-4m apart and a height of 20-40cm. Kind of like a sinus wave. I assume they form when lots of snow mobiles go over a track and they start to bounce up and down. Well in those bumps, my (in my understanding) stiff Ingstads hardly ever had contact with the ground because the ski was just spanning over the bump-valley like a bridge. On that trip, I saw that the other people who rented the Madhus BC50 had much less problems as their skies conformed more to the bums and therefore had better kicks. Of course this is a very specific case but maybe it is good to have a soft shovel sometimes! And I need to tell myself to not have made a big mistake now

please stay in touch and continue sharing your ski story with us!

I will update on how they feel and behave compared to the Ingstads 205 and the excursion 88 179!

[CwmRaider]

That sounds like a good deal on those TN66 crowns. I doubt that you will regret it, they are very nice skis.

One way to make the Ingstad waxless work in cold powder is to add some wax in front of the waxless pattern over 15-20cm or so. Swix Green and Blue Extra will get you a long way.

Grip waxing is not so difficult, except when close to 0 or for icy conditions. Then a narrow Mohair X-skin will help a lot.
I thought grip waxing to be quite daunting for the first 5 years of skiing, without ever trying to wax. Then I started grip waxing because I had bought some Åsnes Nansen Waxless in 2019, whose grip was leaving me incompletely satisfied. I now have only waxable skis.

I find this simple decision process quite useful:
-2 degrees and colder: grip wax (Swix blue extra, Swix Green or Polar if cold enough)
-1 degrees and higher: mohair X-skin.
icy snow: mohair x-skin

You only need 3 grip waxes, a synthetic cork and a scraper in addition to the x-skin.

If grip wax does not grip, a skin always will. And you can stick the skin on Blue Extra or colder grip waxes without pulling the wax off the ski when removing the skin. So this is kind of foolproof in a way.

If nobody has to wait for me I try waxing for higher temps and I am usually successful. If I do put on a too soft wax it requires a scrape and rewaxing. for higher temperatures I use the Swix VP range. They are very expensive waxes but they are less likely to overstick if the snow is just a bit too cold for the wax.