Short, waxable ski recommendation

[blitzskier]

@blitzskier I’m also scheming about a portable rope tow. Saw the ZOA pl1, and the ReWinch but didn’t want to spend that much. Working on something cordless drill powered. I think it’s doable judging by the performance of drill powered rope ascenders (400m ascent on a 5ah battery, similar vertical speed to brisk walk up 30% hill)

i looked at the ZOA pl1.. interesting product but it seems overly engineered and over priced, i think there are simpler options and keep cost to about $200 , still researching and looking at other junkyard parts options. I do have an old f3j glider winch, made from an old Ford starter on a gian 2000ft spool . I really don't want to bring it back with me after I mount it up there, cause its heavy as a mutha fudda. i will have to discuss with the Sherriff/search and rescue guys if they'll let me leave it in the cabin or up in the trees throughout the year.

or an 18volt cordless drill with a fixed spool and a supprt handle might also work. the question is whats a strong cheap line I can used to drive the spool along the length of the line? i cant imagine the angle of rise will exceed 15 degrees along a slope

[Maxwellian]

Paracord is best value, but I think a bit stretchy. I’m gonna try 3/16 solid braid polyester. Slight weight penalty, but I think it’ll be less stretch and better grip. My idea is something like the Zoa, but only one or two sheaves, with more agressive grip.

Backup plan is build something with a loop of rope and stationary motor. Figure I could scale down the rewinch a lot. I don’t need 12kw/16hp. Figure 3/4hp is plenty for the speed I’m after. Would use hollow braid for a loop since it splices easy.

[blitzskier]

4x4 synthetic dynema winch line might be another option, stuff is cheap on amazon, but pricy at 1000foot

i'm guessing one will need atleast a 1000 feet , to make a 500 ft loop

[Maxwellian]

Yeah, you could go pretty small with dyneema though. The rewinch uses 2mm.

[randoskier]

Thanks for your thoughts. I got some feedback on reddit that I shouldn't worry so much about the weight recommendation if I'm waxing, and that fits with my experience when I first started skiing in the mid-70's. Skis were way softer, and we still got fine glide with the right wax. To my understanding, once the ski is moving, the friction creates a thin film of water, which is enough to remove any drag from the fine texture of the wax. Very different from the coarse texture of a waxless ski, which must depend on the camber to get off the snow.

By "coarse texture" do you mean the scales (crown)? The rest of the "waxless" base is usually glide waxed. They normally have the same camber in the wax model and the waxless model of the same ski.

"Waxless skis have come a long way. The position, design, functionality, and length of the patterns have all been adapted and developed for the benefit of increased efficiency and effectiveness, both in grip and glide. That is to say that the new generation of waxless skis are vastly different skis from older skis. Camber and flex on these skis are deliberately the same as those on their waxable equivalents, while the patterns themselves are tested exhaustively. In short, waxless bases have become a truly valid option. All of Åsnes’s mountain skis come with a skin-lock – an attachment point for short skins. If you want to securely attach and change short skins on the go, you can. The combination of waxless soles and skins is extremely versatile, simple, and reliable. Perfect for those of us who don’t want to get into wax but might be concerned about handling different conditions and terrain." - Åsnes

[socaltim]

By "coarse texture" do you mean the scales (crown)? The rest of the "waxless" base is usually glide waxed. They normally have the same camber in the wax model and the waxless model of the same ski.

Right, I understand that both will glide best when pressure on the grip area is reduced by the camber. But, if you are not going to get the right camber, I expect the grip wax will have less friction than the scales. Since it has no visible texture, the grip must be at a microscopic level, as snow crystals get embedded. Once moving these must shear off or ride above the snow in the film of water.

When I first started shopping, I expected I could find shorter skis with the right camber for my weight just by going wider. But I did not find that relationship until getting to much wider downhill oriented skis, which was not my interest at all. All of the touring widths were recommending at least 200 cm, which I wanted to get under, to better maneuver. I am in the odd profile where I am not looking for any downhill thrills, but it is unavoidable to find any snow.

"Waxless skis have come a long way. The position, design, functionality, and length of the patterns have all been adapted and developed for the benefit of increased efficiency and effectiveness, both in grip and glide. That is to say that the new generation of waxless skis are vastly different skis from older skis. Camber and flex on these skis are deliberately the same as those on their waxable equivalents, while the patterns themselves are tested exhaustively. In short, waxless bases have become a truly valid option. All of Åsnes’s mountain skis come with a skin-lock – an attachment point for short skins. If you want to securely attach and change short skins on the go, you can. The combination of waxless soles and skins is extremely versatile, simple, and reliable. Perfect for those of us who don’t want to get into wax but might be concerned about handling different conditions and terrain." - Åsnes

I know the waxless skis are much better than they used to be, so my assumption about grip wax having less friction when camber is flattened, may be wrong. If I was doing more lengthy tours, I think I would appreciate the versatility of waxless. But, I usually just go out for 2-3 hours, and often a few circuits over the same track, so I am not running into great changes in condition. I am not trying to get anywhere, I just enjoy the rhythm and motion, trying to perfect my technique to get maximum glide for minimal effort. Also, I find that the warm, consolidated mountain snow is very easy to wax for, once you embrace the klister.

[pacificnomad]

Thanks for your thoughts. I got some feedback on reddit that I shouldn't worry so much about the weight recommendation if I'm waxing, and that fits with my experience when I first started skiing in the mid-70's. Skis were way softer, and we still got fine glide with the right wax. To my understanding, once the ski is moving, the friction creates a thin film of water, which is enough to remove any drag from the fine texture of the wax. Very different from the coarse texture of a waxless ski, which must depend on the camber to get off the snow.

By "coarse texture" do you mean the scales (crown)? The rest of the "waxless" base is usually glide waxed. They normally have the same camber in the wax model and the waxless model of the same ski.

"Waxless skis have come a long way. The position, design, functionality, and length of the patterns have all been adapted and developed for the benefit of increased efficiency and effectiveness, both in grip and glide. That is to say that the new generation of waxless skis are vastly different skis from older skis. Camber and flex on these skis are deliberately the same as those on their waxable equivalents, while the patterns themselves are tested exhaustively. In short, waxless bases have become a truly valid option. All of Åsnes’s mountain skis come with a skin-lock – an attachment point for short skins. If you want to securely attach and change short skins on the go, you can. The combination of waxless soles and skins is extremely versatile, simple, and reliable. Perfect for those of us who don’t want to get into wax but might be concerned about handling different conditions and terrain." - Åsnes

I think that it's worth noting that this is Asnes speaking about their own waxless pattern, which is less 'grippy' than the current Fischer pattern. With their camber and a half profile, BC Nordic skis are generally going to drag a bit on scale pattern/wax pocket. Having skied the S-Bound 98's extensively for a few years, I can attest to this. The 98's were on the longish size for my weight and I would always hear and feel the scales dragging a bit on firmer snow. I can't detect any kind of wax pocket drag on my Kongsvold's, even if I've got two layers or Polar kick as a binder and tow to three layers of temp specific kick wax on top of that. I think that for a ski to have a pattern that's really grippy, you are probably going to have some consistent scale drag depending on your weight and type of snow you're skiing.

[fisheater]

@socaltim congratulations on the Amundsen. Let us know how they work out for you. My klister tip is to have a cold beer or two and some baby powder at the truck when you get back.
Nothing like a cold beer after a good ski, cleaning the klister is just part of the experience. For me it’s just pleasant way to wind down before the drive home.

[mca80]

I'd ignore rando, he pastes marketing info really well but cannot think for himself nor offer much of value. Just my 2c tho.

[randoskier]

Thanks for your thoughts. I got some feedback on reddit that I shouldn't worry so much about the weight recommendation if I'm waxing, and that fits with my experience when I first started skiing in the mid-70's. Skis were way softer, and we still got fine glide with the right wax. To my understanding, once the ski is moving, the friction creates a thin film of water, which is enough to remove any drag from the fine texture of the wax. Very different from the coarse texture of a waxless ski, which must depend on the camber to get off the snow.

By "coarse texture" do you mean the scales (crown)? The rest of the "waxless" base is usually glide waxed. They normally have the same camber in the wax model and the waxless model of the same ski.

"Waxless skis have come a long way. The position, design, functionality, and length of the patterns have all been adapted and developed for the benefit of increased efficiency and effectiveness, both in grip and glide. That is to say that the new generation of waxless skis are vastly different skis from older skis. Camber and flex on these skis are deliberately the same as those on their waxable equivalents, while the patterns themselves are tested exhaustively. In short, waxless bases have become a truly valid option. All of Åsnes’s mountain skis come with a skin-lock – an attachment point for short skins. If you want to securely attach and change short skins on the go, you can. The combination of waxless soles and skins is extremely versatile, simple, and reliable. Perfect for those of us who don’t want to get into wax but might be concerned about handling different conditions and terrain." - Åsnes

I think that it's worth noting that his is Asnes speaking about their own waxless pattern, which is less 'grippy' than the current Fischer pattern. With their camber and a half profile, BC Nordic skis are generally going to drag a bit on scale pattern/wax pocket. Having skied the S-Bound 98's extensively for a few years, I can attest to this. The 98's were on the longish size for my weight and I would always hear and feel the scales dragging a bit on firmer snow. I can't detect any kind of wax pocket drag on my Kongsvold's, even if I've got two layers or Polar kick as a binder and tow to three layers of temp specific kick wax on top of that. I think that for a ski to have a pattern that's really grippy, you are probably going to have some consistent scale drag depending on your weight and type of snow you're skiing.

I don't think Asnes scales are less grippy than the current Fischer crown scales, except when ascending. Their X-skin attachment is also inferior to the the Easyskin. I have been skiing the Excursion 88 for a couple of years, going to the Traverse 78 this year- I received them recently and judging by feel I would say the crown scales are smoother going forward than than the Excursion's (just an empirical observation by touch). I will see on the snow, but I never found them a problem with the Excursion either. I have a pair of 210cm 2004 Fischer Europa's, their scales are quite "noisy" and do drag but I still drag them out for a walk once in a while.

I see an awful lot of Fischer skis in Norway which says something as it is a fairly parochial country, and prefers native brands (even brands like Åsnes- made in Czechia).

I have a pair of Madshus EONs that have the worst scales evah- both ascending and descending.

Asnes is a grossly over-priced brand- the 2024/2025 Nansen WL lists at 459 EUR and sells on sale for 413 EUR at the moment.

The Fischer Traverse 78 2024/2025 lists for 299 EUR and is on sale for 269 EUR at the moment. I paid $270 US with bindings and mounting.

I see zero justification for that price difference, Fischer is simply a more efficient company. I do like the Asnes top-sheet graphics though-no doubt copied from the tails of Norwegian Airlines (betcha it is the same marketing/design agency).