BC vs BCX and other questions

[RichBenn]

Hi everyone! Hope everyone is enjoying the Holidays.

My wife and I are about to purchase some XCD(BC) equipment. Our current gear in the BC arena is very old and or broken, so it's time.

For bindings, I see Rottefella makes the Rossi and Fischer BC bindings, and I guess there are manual and automatic, plus the "Magnum" size. But I also see "BCX". Are BCX any different than BC?

Also, I read the section on where to mount, which says what I already know - it's up to me. We are looking at skis with about 90mm shovels, leaning towards the downhill capability vs maximum kick and glide, so I'm concerned about mounting too far back. Been there, done that for three pin cable bindings, so any experience with mounting forward of the recommended center would be appreciated.

[bgregoire]

The only BC systems binding available on the market as we speak is the line offered by Rottefella. Fischer et Rossignol have offered this binding with their own stickers on them, but they have always really been Rottefella.

BCX is just a branding, I think FIsher uses it. I guess it mean Backcountry-Crosscountry. Who really knows? Its quite meaningless, so its the same as BC.

I will let others more keen on placement get back to you on that, but for what it worth, I dont recall anyone choosing to place a binding forward of balance point. that would be my personal forward limit.

[lilcliffy]

^^^^What Ben said regarding these bindings.
All NNN/NNNBC bindings are made by Rottefella in Norway- along with the outsoles- regardless of the boot manufacturer and the sticker on the binding.

I think the "BCX" moniker is a legacy of Fischer's internal classification of their offtrack/backcountry Nordic touring skis-
The term "BCX" used to distinguish the more traditional Nordic BC touring skis (e.g. E-89/E-99/E-109) from their wider, shaped compact-geometry "xcd" skis traditionally under the Fischer moniker "S-Bound". I notice that all of Fischer's offtrack/backcountry skis are now under the moniker "adventure"- which I suppose is less complicated- but also a bit confusing because the skis under that umbrella are VERY different.

................
Mounting point on Nordic touring skis-
(Please forgive if I blather on about stuff you already know...)

The traditional mounting point for a Nordic touring ski- regardless of whether it is for the track, offtrack or mountain touring- is balance point (BP). As an example of this- Asnes in Norway may be the only ski company left designing Nordic-downhill skis and they are designed to mount Nordic bindings at BP- even for downhill-specific performance.

The whole "chord-center" (CC) mounting is a thing of the Telemark-renaissance in North America. Mounting a traditional Nordic ski at CC can produce a mounting point forward of BP. Mounting a traditional Nordic ski forward of BP has a number of effects:
- increases grip- reduces glide- when XC skiing and climbing
- potentially improves turn initiation (depends on ski geometry)
- potentially increases tip-dive (depends on ski geometry)
It is important to recognize that mounting at CC is ENTIRELY arbitrary. There are many old-school and modern touring skis that have geometry that results in CC and BP being exactly the same- therefore, a CC mounting IS a BP mounting! Modern innovations of rocker-camber profiles and multi-point sidecuts and early taper essentially blow-up any of the classical assumptions one can make about moving forwards of BP with a Nordic binding...
Recent discussion on CC/BP mounting here: http://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1853

I have given up mounting at CC- and always start with the manufacturer's Nordic/Telemark mounting point- which is almost 100% BP for my all of my touring skis.
(BTW- I have recently tried Rotte's "Move" binding system for track skiing- it is WICKED for performance track skiing!)
....................
What skis are you considering mounting? With NNNBC I presume? What is the manufacturers recommended mounting point?
Gareth

[Johnny]

I dont recall anyone choosing to place a binding forward of balance point. that would be my personal forward limit.

I do.

Not all the time but yes, I sometimes do, for several different reasons depending on the ski itself. Going for BP is quite simple... It works for most people, but modern skis are so complex, fine-tuning the mounting point can be very, very fun and rewarding.

I sometimes like to move forward a few centimeters to compensate for the binding weight. So your skis are really on balance when you lift them. It makes a cool difference for touring, going uphill or breaking trails. Moving forward is also nice for carving certain skis. And on some others, balance point may be nice for XC for not appropriate at all for downhill...

Going for BP on everything doesn't make much sense to me... That is why I think adjustable plates are A MUST for every binding... Like the XCelerators and the Freerides... Please Rotte, we need BC FIS plates...!

[RichBenn]

Thank you both. I figured the BCX was a marketing thing.

I am getting Fischer's in the Excursion 88s with probably Magnum BC bindings and Alpina Alaska boots. Looking for that middle ground between Tele, single camber skis w/skins and track skis without edges.

My fear of where to mount is from having a shop mount far too back for a 3 pin years ago. Hard to remember, but I think they mounted the pin line back of the balance point. So they were terrible for downhill. For tele skiing with cable bindings, my thoughts are the force while skiing is at the ball of the foot, not at the pins. So once I factored that into mounting location(and doing my own), telemarking was effortless. But I'm less clear on NNN-BC. I don't have the equipment yet, so I don't know what they recommend.

I wish those "move" bindings were available in BC. Seems THE answer. Adjustable bindings.

[CwmRaider]

Whichever NNN-BC bindings you get, it is best to avoid the Auto variants as, they can ice up and you can end up not being able to release them (you can de-ice them with hot liquids in a pinch but its not a very elegant solution). I never had an issue with the normal Manual and Magnum variants.

[DPO777]

I dont recall anyone choosing to place a binding forward of balance point. that would be my personal forward limit.

I do.

Not all the time but yes, I sometimes do, for several different reasons depending on the ski itself. Going for BP is quite simple... It works for most people, but modern skis are so complex, fine-tuning the mounting point can be very, very fun and rewarding.

I sometimes like to move forward a few centimeters to compensate for the binding weight. So your skis are really on balance when you lift them. It makes a cool difference for touring, going uphill or breaking trails. Moving forward is also nice for carving certain skis. And on some others, balance point may be nice for XC for not appropriate at all for downhill...

Going for BP on everything doesn't make much sense to me... That is why I think adjustable plates are A MUST for every binding... Like the XCelerators and the Freerides... Please Rotte, we need BC FIS plates...!

Yes Johnny, you hit right on the mark my thoughts for awhile. Please make the BC bindings with a heavy duty adjustable plate like the IFP. Probably one reason is they want to keep people buying new set of bindings for every pair of BC skis. Usually the IFP plate can be bought for reasonable charge and then you can just move top binding from ski to ski for testing without buying more full sets. The bean counters at Rotti probably were sober when they made there decision for maximum profit. The BC bindings up here in Canuck land average $140 CAD regular price and maybe average 90-110 in US.

Yet they do it on the IFP plate systems

Also wondering if they figure they can't make it strong enough as compared to screw on binding, for the heavier BC ski usage.

Again the IFP plate system design for BC bindings can be made strong with the right engineering.

Even within other brands of Rotti BC bindings (eg. Fischer Magnum BCX) it appears the spec may be higher on the Fischer as I have a set of each and the 3 screws ahead of the boot lock are longer on the Fischer magnums with a longer un-threaded shoulder. The quality of the screw head and thread is better on the Fischer version as well. Perhaps a fluke as the Fisher magnums are older stock and the Rotti's are newer stock.

Personally for what they are I find the BC bindings are over priced. When you buy a bare skis onsale around $200-300 you are paying 1/3 to 1/2 that or more for the BC binding. Pretty sure there is more than twice the materials and manufacturing cost on a pair of Fischer/Rossignol BC skis than the mostly extruded plastic bindings.