Can you actually climb with kick wax?

[fgd135]

On one of my several times skiing the Commando Run, from Vail Pass to Vail, I did it with a larger group. This tour is long, has quite a bit of uphill, and has a huge downhill at the end, on trails inside the ski area--anyway, one skier in the group did it using only kick wax, not skins, unlike the rest of us. It turned into quite an epic for her, and for that matter, for us, as she struggled mightily with the verticals--put on too much wax to glide; also this glopped up on the uphills; in the rolling sections she essentially had to walk down on her boards...and at the final descents, first into the back bowls, then the big climb up and the huge downhill finish, she had to stop, scrape, ski, stop add wax, stop, scrape again. Made a much longer day.
Not the tour for using waxes exclusively, and too steep for waxless-only boards...

[Telerock]

This conversation is interesting; but no-one mentions poles. Long poles with a large basket will help get you over a short hump, or make that kick turn. Using poles makes assent a whole body work-out. I generally do not like a slope so steep I only use my poles, but they are indispensable for gaining that extra 2-3% grade. I wrap the poles 2/3 of the way up with hockey tape, twisted into a spiral grip and covered with a second flat round of tape, so they are effectively short poles on the way down (to avoid the drag and “catch on a branch and pull your arm off”)

[lilcliffy]

Yes- definitely- but, like everything with ski touring- it depends.
If one considers the typical/optimal slope gradient of most ski touring skin tracks- this is easily doable with kick wax (when the conditions "work"- again it depends!)
However- climbing skins will ALWAYS work. Kick wax will theoretically always work- but there are lots of conditions where it may not be worth the time/effort to get kick wax to work for serious climbing.


It depends on many things- including but not limited to:
- snow conditions
- ski geometry
- waxing application
- skier skill
- skier fitness

Snow-
- if one is getting effective XC grip with kick wax-
- one can easily extend the kick wax on to the shovel and outclimb scales
- one can extend kick wax onto the tail as well and get grip as effective as full-length skins

My experience is that grip/kick wax outperforms scales in all traction- both XC and climbing. There are certainly many snow conditions where scales are simply easier than trying to get the kick wax just right- especially in backcountry conditions- especially with changing temperatures, and snow conditions, and especially with siginficant elevation and terrain, and forest cover effecting snow condtions. For example, my tour yesterday- I went with S-Bound 98- fresh, wet snow on top of deep stable base- started out around freezing- by mid-afternoon it was -8C. I had superb XC and climbing traction on scales, until the temperature got to the point that the wet fresh snow started to freeze and get icy- I had "ok" XC scale traction- and ZERO climbing scale traction and needed skins. The last 2 hours of my tour- I put kick wax on and had super glide and traction in all terrain.

Ski geometry-
- significantly cambered, stiff XC skis can be very challenging to climb with- especially if they are cambered enough that they must be assertively fuly-weighted to have any grip- especially in truly deep snow (which is grip challenge for highly-cambered skis in general). One MUST extend the kick wax on to the shovel to get any serious climbing grip with a highly-cambered ski.
- I generally try to avoid highly-cambered skis in truly steep terrain. Low-cambered are easier to get consistent climbing traction- and they are also easier to turn!!!!

Waxing application-
- I don't use glide wax on my Nordic touring skis that I use in steep terrain. I use grip wax only.
- I use very hard/cold grip wax as the full-length base.
- I am conservative with my use of kick wax.

I get superb grip and glide- XC, cllimbing and downhill skiing- with little to no transitions and need of skins. I only use scaled skis when I am on warm wet snow and/or when the snow conditions range so widely that kick waxing is too much work. But I still use grip wax on my scaled steep terrain skis- not glide wax.

Not going to comment on skier skill and fitness- this ALWAYS matters.

[pacificnomad]

Ski geometry-
- significantly cambered, stiff XC skis can be very challenging to climb with- especially if they are cambered enough that they must be assertively fuly-weighted to have any grip- especially in truly deep snow (which is grip challenge for highly-cambered skis in general). One MUST extend the kick wax on to the shovel to get any serious climbing grip with a highly-cambered ski.
- I generally try to avoid highly-cambered skis in truly steep terrain. Low-cambered are easier to get consistent climbing traction- and they are also easier to turn!!!

While on the topic of waxing significantly cambered skis, what are your thoughts on the camber of the Asnes MT-65/USGI ski's, specifically, do you see/feel any camber variation to how your MT-65's feel now after use vs when they were new? I purchased my pair this last summer and have probably put around 30+ hours of ski time on them. I kinda get the feeling these skis have broken in very nicely. Just an awesome pleasant feeling camber when pressing down for the kick and a great pop sensation when the ski is unweighted at the very end of the kick cycle. Do you think skis break in? Is this a thing or my imagination?

In terms of waxing for grip and climbing steeper grades, the MT-65's out climb my Ingsatd BC's hands down. I don't know if it's due to the larger surface area that the MT-65 offers. I suspect that despite having a more narrow shovel than the Ingy's. The Mt-65's have less side cut and a wider waist and are 5cm longer at 200cm vs my Ingy's at 195cm. The MT-65's base seems to differ from my other Asnes skis too; the Mt-65's seem to more readily accept wax and are a joy to cork, even in the rain. Maybe the MT-65's mass just makes stomping up climbs easier lol?

For reference I'm 165lbs 5'8" and trail run 6 days/week outside of ski season.

[lilcliffy]

While on the topic of waxing significantly cambered skis, what are your thoughts on the camber of the Asnes MT-65/USGI ski's, specifically, do you see/feel any camber variation to how your MT-65's feel now after use vs when they were new? I purchased my pair this last summer and have probably put around 30+ hours of ski time on them. I kinda get the feeling these skis have broken in very nicely. Just an awesome pleasant feeling camber when pressing down for the kick and a great pop sensation when the ski is unweighted at the very end of the kick cycle. Do you think skis break in? Is this a thing or my imagination?

Yes- skis do break in- and they do lose some of their camber over time and prolongued use- degree dependant on construction and materials.

In terms of waxing for grip and climbing steeper grades, the MT-65's out climb my Ingsatd BC's hands down. I don't know if it's due to the larger surface area that the MT-65 offers. I suspect that despite having a more narrow shovel than the Ingy's. The Mt-65's have less side cut and a wider waist and are 5cm longer at 200cm vs my Ingy's at 195cm. The MT-65's base seems to differ from my other Asnes skis too; the Mt-65's seem to more readily accept wax and are a joy to cork, even in the rain. Maybe the MT-65's mass just makes stomping up climbs easier lol?

For reference I'm 165lbs 5'8" and trail run 6 days/week outside of ski season.

Meant to speak to this in my last post-

Another dimension of ski geometry that affects grip is rocker-
significantly rockered skis offer less grip than non-

There are two reasons why your MT65 outclimbs your Ingstad BC:
1) Greater width/surface area- especially underfoot.
2) no rocker- and the Ingstad BC has a ton of shovel rocker

As another comparison- the original Ingstad design- non-rockered (ie Combat NATO) outclimbs the Ingstad BC, depsite have the same sidecut geometry/width.

[lilcliffy]

Another note on this topic-

The term "kick" wax is a modern term- associated with the development of Classic performance crosscountry track skiing. Kick waxing is really about applying optimal grip wax to the kick zone of a double-cambered ski, that is free of the snow during the glide phase of Classic track kick and glide (ie diagonal stride) skiing, and as such does not need to glide- it just needs to grip that snow when that stiff underfoot camber is compressed during the kick phase.

The use of "grip" waxing is much older and at one time (and still is for many- comme moi) the primary base wax for Nordic ski touring- offering both grip and glide.

By using grip wax as my base ( or in VERY cold conditions almost none at all) I do not need much "kick" wax on my low-cambered deep snow and/or steep terrain touring skis. I do use "kick" wax on my distance-focused and signficantly cambered touring skis.

My point- is yes, you can climb on "kick" wax- but I would never apply "kick" wax to the entire base of a ski like I would a harder/colder grip wax.

[pacificnomad]

[/quote]

Meant to speak to this in my last post-

Another dimension of ski geometry that affects grip is rocker-
significantly rockered skis offer less grip than non-

There are two reasons why your MT65 outclimbs your Ingstad BC:
1) Greater width/surface area- especially underfoot.
2) no rocker- and the Ingstad BC has a ton of shovel rocker

As another comparison- the original Ingstad design- non-rockered (ie Combat NATO) outclimbs the Ingstad BC, depsite have the same sidecut geometry/width.
[/quote]

Thanks for the insight! You also clarified a question that I was struggling to put into words and ended up not asking: how the extensive shovel 'Nordic' rocker affects climbing ability. I've noticed that when climbing in deeper or softer snow on really any climb gradient, the shovel of the Ingstad flexes so much when weighted that it effectively arcs and loads, which results in a very palpable sensation of being pushed backwards while trying to move forward and uphill. No bueno. This sensation is also felt more subtly on the flats too. I'm looking forward to receiving my new Nansen WL's in the mail this coming Wednesday.

[lilcliffy]

Thanks for the insight! You also clarified a question that I was struggling to put into words and ended up not asking: how the extensive shovel 'Nordic' rocker affects climbing ability. I've noticed that when climbing in deeper or softer snow on really any climb gradient, the shovel of the Ingstad flexes so much when weighted that it effectively arcs and loads, which results in a very palpable sensation of being pushed backwards while trying to move forward and uphill. No bueno. This sensation is also felt more subtly on the flats too. I'm looking forward to receiving my new Nansen WL's in the mail this coming Wednesday.

I think you will be pleased with the Nansen, it- along with the Amundsen- are Asnes' two traditional backcountry Nordic touring ski designs- one for steep terrain- the other for distance-
They remain their most versatile BC Nordic touring designs.

I do still love the Ingstad BC, but I have long since gotten over the intial rush of their potential for planing and turn initiation-
the Ingstad BC is due for a refresh and it needs to be toned-down with respect to rocker- just like they did with the current Falketind 62 and Rabb 68.
the Ingstad BC is still a XC ski at its core and too much rocker comprimizes its performance as a XC ski.
The Ingstad BC still breaks trail better than the new FTX- due to the traditional, raised triangular tip- but, the current toned-down FTX is so much more stable than its predecesor, and it surfs and turns so much better than the Ingstad, that Helge has barely left the barn this winter!

[wabene]

Drifting off topic, but I'm hoping the Nordic rocker craze has reached it's zenith and we will see more redesigns that tone it down. Just last year I picked up some fishscaled TN66's and the rocker is very pronounced. I compared them to my Åsnes Gammes and it is quite a bit more on the Fischers. This really limits the skis breaking trail in fresh semi-deep snow. I still like the skis but can't help but think they would be improved with less rocker.

[corlay]

Another note on this topic-

The term "kick" wax is a modern term-

The use of "grip" waxing is much older

By using grip wax as my base ( or in VERY cold conditions almost none at all) I do not need much "kick" wax on my low-cambered deep snow and/or steep terrain touring skis. I do use "kick" wax on my distance-focused and signficantly cambered touring skis.

My point- is yes, you can climb on "kick" wax- but I would never apply "kick" wax to the entire base of a ski like I would a harder/colder grip wax.

If using the typical Swix waxes, color-coded…
do you consider them *All* “grip waxes”? or do you consider the colder waxes “grip” and warmer waxes “kick”? If so, what color is the break-point? (example: Polar, Green, Blue, Blue Extra = grip, Violet Special, Red Special, Red-Silver = kick?) and if these are all “grip” in your mind, which other Swix waxes would be considered “kick”?