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You nailed it Al. Excursions are too light for resort/groomed snow and high speeds on the v6s. Also, getting centered over your skis is good advice. In my experience skiing the v6s and the Vectors, they ski best with a bit more of an aggressive stance than many other skis I've used on groomers.
Excursions are too light for resort/groomed snow and high speeds on the v6s.
Can't imagine skiing mine with anything less than T2's.
Re: V6 on firm
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:37 pm
by phoenix
"Did someone call it “Walking the dog?”
Referred to more often as "poodling", I believe.
I got lost trying to absorb all the tech tips and critique, but most of it sounded good. You do want to consistently work on keeping your torso facing down the fall line to avoid overturning, as has been suggested (lilcliffy, I think it was). I also favor a more upright and tighter stance, skiing from a centered position (as lowangle al suggests), along with mounting my skis 4-6 centimeters back from boot center (I'm not looking for any agreement on that one, I know it's largely unpopular these days).
Now this piques my interest as I'm right about your size, picked up a pair of V6's last spring, and have yet to try 'em, and plan on skiing them with my Excursions. Intended to be my soft snow, powder skis, but may still run into some hard snow. I'm not worried at all about overturning, but I'll be curious to see how they hold an edge. Widest I've skied so far is 88cm waist (which seemed to do well with my Excursions).
Re: V6 on firm
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:00 pm
by jalp
I just wanted to drop a quick reply and thank everyone for all of their responses! I'm going to have to sit down and read and respond to your thoughts properly when I get a little more time.
Just skimming through your comments has confirmed some of my own thoughts as well as given me a few additional possibilities to consider.
I actually feel pretty great on firm snow on a pair of narrower, less rockered skis. I think lilcliffy said it perfectly:
Perhaps the short effective edge of the V6 on hard-pack is bringing out your personal "bad" habits (we all have them!)
A little more context:
I'm definitely not an expert alpine skier, never was, not even close! I had a few seasons of alpine in the late 80's and early 90's when shaped skis were still a radical new concept. I've most likely remembered all of my bad habits and none of the good ones from back then.
My more recent ski history is within the last 10 years and consisted mostly of XC and XCD. It's been only within the last 2 seasons that I've been seriously committed to teaching myself downhill telemark technique. I've been sticking to the back and side country and have yet to take a single tele turn on groomed resort snow. I know I definitely need to be hitting the resort this year.
I'm a bit pressed for time right now, but over the next few days I'll try to respond to your comments in more detail.
Thanks again!
Re: V6 on firm
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:26 am
by Stephen
Executive Summary: On firm snow, I think V6 tails may wash out easier than some other skis.
@jalp, I took a look at my V6 skis, compared to some others I have.
I now think the V6, on firm snow, could be part of what’s going on.
I laid each ski on a flat surface and marked the front and rear contact point of the base (ski uncompressed).
I then put the ski on an angle (on edge) and compressed it until the edge made full contact with the flat surface, so the ski is arced, like it might be in a turn, and marked the ski where the ski’s rocker (tip and tail) left the flat surface (I know this is not the same as the dynamic environment of ski on snow — best I can do).
Other than the V6, the running surface contact points and the effective edge contact points were essentially the same.
On the V6, the effective edge end point moved away from the tip and tail (toward the middle of the ski) by 2.5” to 3” on both ends.
Plus, the tail of the V6 is quite flexible (soft).
To put it simply, with the V6 on firm snow, there ain’t much back there!
Maybe all that has something to do with the V6 being a good soft snow ski.
In the picture, the far edge of the green tape is the running surface end-point and the the far edge of the yellow tape is the end point of the effective edge (yellow tape is on top of the green tape, except for the V6).
The skis are lined up along the boot center mark on each ski, with the camera lens directly above that mark.
.
Re: V6 on firm
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:15 am
by DropKneeDiehard
Talking as an Ex telemark instructor in the 90s where we did exams on movement analysis and drills/exercises to fix them
Without seeing video but a description
You are probably over rotating the upper body which soft powder skis will show up on hardback....especially if you end up facing back up hill.
You need to work on steering with you feet (see if I can find an exercise on youtube).
and use more foot steering than upper body steering. Some call this rotary.
Its basically the movement you use with your foot to squash a bug on the floor. Pressure and twist.
Many skiers turn with their shoulders rotating through the whole body. Very Very common.
You cant take this away from them (Ie point your shoulders down the hill, belly button down the hill, and all the other drills) until you give them another way to turn the skis....otherwise they won't be able to turn anymore
so practice drills on foot steering on a very low angles slope down a gentle fall line.
When hourglass skis replaced straight ski in the early 2000 a lot more got away with using the shoulders for rotation as the ski would come around faster than they could rotate their shoulders. If you know how to edge (feet, knees, hips) you can get away with upper body rotation.
But also learn foot steering as this is the skill that will get you doing short rapid fire tele turns straight down the fall line.
You can then move onto other methods to turn your skis ie counter rotation (Wind dishrag drill), Extension retraction (roll legs up over a barrell)
The one drill we all should practise is the telemark sideslip....If you can't sideslip in a good Telemark stance you cant really telemark.
This drill solves heaps of problems...edging, weight distribution, stance
Practise the falling leaf side slip in a telemark stance over and over and over on all your skis skinnies to Fats, skating boots to Scrape Pros. Practise it over and over on side hills, frozen driveways the walls on the side of runs.
Sorry if I sound like a wanker but I love movement analysis. It all still applies to modern technique.
DISCLAIMER...Side slip wont work on waxless skis very well....also foot steering a lot harder on waxless skis.
Re: V6 on firm
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:02 am
by DropKneeDiehard
[Found one
url][/url]
Can also use in telemark but practice the Tele side slip first
Talking as an Ex telemark instructor in the 90s where we did exams on movement analysis and drills/exercises to fix them
Without seeing video but a description
You are probably over rotating the upper body which soft powder skis will show up on hardback....especially if you end up facing back up hill.
You need to work on steering with you feet (see if I can find an exercise on youtube).
and use more foot steering than upper body steering. Some call this rotary.
Its basically the movement you use with your foot to squash a bug on the floor. Pressure and twist.
Many skiers turn with their shoulders rotating through the whole body. Very Very common.
You cant take this away from them (Ie point your shoulders down the hill, belly button down the hill, and all the other drills) until you give them another way to turn the skis....otherwise they won't be able to turn anymore
so practice drills on foot steering on a very low angles slope down a gentle fall line.
When hourglass skis replaced straight ski in the early 2000 a lot more got away with using the shoulders for rotation as the ski would come around faster than they could rotate their shoulders. If you know how to edge (feet, knees, hips) you can get away with upper body rotation.
But also learn foot steering as this is the skill that will get you doing short rapid fire tele turns straight down the fall line.
You can then move onto other methods to turn your skis ie counter rotation (Wind dishrag drill), Extension retraction (roll legs up over a barrell)
The one drill we all should practise is the telemark sideslip....If you can't sideslip in a good Telemark stance you cant really telemark.
This drill solves heaps of problems...edging, weight distribution, stance
Practise the falling leaf side slip in a telemark stance over and over and over on all your skis skinnies to Fats, skating boots to Scrape Pros. Practise it over and over on side hills, frozen driveways the walls on the side of runs.
Sorry if I sound like a wanker but I love movement analysis. It all still applies to modern technique.
DISCLAIMER...Side slip wont work on waxless skis very well....also foot steering a lot harder on waxless skis.
I agree. Movement analysis is very helpful. Understanding the physics of turning is crucial.
Re: V6 on firm
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:54 am
by lowangle al
That's all good technique advice and could probably help.
Looking at the bigger picture, now I know this was bc snow that can be harder than resort hardpack I would switch to P turns or wedge turns. I think the reason I assumed the OP was at the resort was because I wouldn't be doing T turns on hard bc snow with those skis. When the snow isn't fun I don't try to make it so. Everything is relative too, like how hard the snow is.
When I first started using wider skis I found them hard to get weight on the rear skis edge, so they may take some getting used to also.
Re: V6 on firm
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:06 am
by Woodserson
I haven't had any problems with the V6 washing out on firm snow in either T4s or T2s but I will say they are my least favorite firm snow ski. Just meh. Staying centered is great advice.
But in anything else, they deliver knuckle biting ecstacy. The right tool for the right job.
