All purpose backcountry/bushwack ski

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MikeK

Re: All purpose backcountry/bushwack ski

Post by MikeK » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:32 pm

ddg wrote:Thanks StormyMonday and MikeK. How do the Excursions compare to the SCARPA T4s? The T4s are cheaper. :-)
Excursions fit different and have a softer overall forward flex.

Just to compare when shopping for my wife she demo'd the T4 first. She said it felt like lead on her foot and gave her a cramp in the heel, of all places.

She never demo'd the Excursion, but rather I just bit the bullet and bought her a pair based on info saying it was softer and a different fit. She loves those boots. Says they are the most comfortable ski boots she has or has tried. Warm, supportive, soft enough to kick and glide with and also so much stiffer than any of the leathers (she has Alaskas and Crispi Svartisen to compare to).

I tend to think the T4 is more geared to telemark skier looking for a light BC boot and the Excursion is more geared towards XCD skiers looking for a 'stiff' boot. Just my opinion on the matter though... YMMV.

MikeK

Re: All purpose backcountry/bushwack ski

Post by MikeK » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:41 pm

connyro wrote:
ddg wrote: Almost all of my travels will be on unbroken paths. The exploring of new zones in the same area is half the fun. :) For this reason the S98 really intrigues me. And I love the idea of being able to climb easily and control those down hill runs securely.
For climbing and descending, IMO the Vector BCs and light plastic boots like Excursions and a light tele binding (Voile 3-pin HW or Switchback) are a great tool for the job. The group that I ski with are all on either Guides, Rossi 125s, Alpina XTerrains, or Vector BCs with light plastic or leather boots, and the Vectors out-climb them all by a long shot. We'll do several hours at a time and cover anywhere from 5-10 miles stomping around looking for good downhills/laps in terrain that ranges from rolling hills to steep, sharp, wooded bowls, most likely not all that different than what you have in NB.

Good points but here's where I would point out what you need to decided:

Are you out hunting for TURNS... or are you just out exploring and making some downhill runs as you see fit?

It seems subtle, but to me there is a HUGE difference. The skis that connyro suggest are all what I consider turn hunter skis - that is their main purpose. That's not say you can't tour them or hunt for turns on a different ski/boot/binding combo...but those are VERY focused on just that.

A ski like the S98 or Epoch plops right in the middle. It can do a lot of things - none the best, but it's meant to just be an all around, backcountry ski IMO. Go off trail - go in deep snow - go up some hills - go down some hills - cover some ground and ski back in it's own track relatively fast and easy.



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ddg
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Re: All purpose backcountry/bushwack ski

Post by ddg » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:52 pm

MikeK wrote: Are you out hunting for TURNS... or are you just out exploring and making some downhill runs as you see fit?
Nope.
MikeK wrote: A ski like the S98 or Epoch plops right in the middle. It can do a lot of things - none the best, but it's meant to just be an all around, backcountry ski IMO. Go off trail - go in deep snow - go up some hills - go down some hills - cover some ground and ski back in it's own track relatively fast and easy.
Yep. Except that I usually end up coming back a different way. :D
Derrick



MikeK

Re: All purpose backcountry/bushwack ski

Post by MikeK » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:55 pm

OK, well I think you're on the right track for skis then... just a matter of sorting out the logistics of getting gear and getting out there.

Have fun!



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Re: All purpose backcountry/bushwack ski

Post by connyro » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:02 pm

MikeK wrote: Good points but here's where I would point out what you need to decided:

The skis that connyro suggest are all what I consider turn hunter skis - that is their main purpose. That's not say you can't tour them or hunt for turns on a different ski/boot/binding combo...but those are VERY focused on just that.


I don't agree with this. They are not VERY focused on turn hunting necessarily. The Guides are just big floppy XC skis that are great for adventure skiing and stomping around in deep untracked snow. Same thing with the Rossi BC 125s. I would consider the skis that MikeK mentioned to be more tour-oriented and less climbing/descending. The Fishers have negative pattern scale bases which glide well but don't really climb in the same class as something like the Vector BC which, along with the other skis I mentioned, have a positive scale pattern and climb much better but lose some glide.

FWIW: One of my ski buddies had a friend in town from Alaska who brought a pair of the 98s out to ski with us and absolutely could not keep up on downs or ups when we were on Guides/Vectors, and he is a real good skier.



MikeK

Re: All purpose backcountry/bushwack ski

Post by MikeK » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:29 pm

Hmm - strange. My 98s are positive pattern and outclimb all of my Madshus skis. The pattern is actually the exact same thing they use on those new skins they are selling.

The old S Bounds (Outtabounds and BCX skis) used to be negative patterned, as we had a pair. Not so great for climbing.

I personally don't feel the same way about the Annum/Guide, but I know some do - to me it's a very limited ski for touring around in. It's much softer and has much less camber than any of the others. Shape-wise, yeah, it's not really all out for turns.

I can't comment on the Vector or BC125 except to say that the Vector BC is no doubt a climbing machine - also, as far as I have read it's nearly flat cambered, so it's not going to stride that well. I don't know the minds of it's designer but it was a non-patterned Tele ski at first that was then adapted to turn hunters who didn't want to mess with skins.

It doesn't seem like ddg is needing to keep up with anyone but himself, but I'd think for the money/weight/simplicity that a tour/turn middle ground ski would be a more up his alley.



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Re: All purpose backcountry/bushwack ski

Post by ddg » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:35 pm

There's also the middle ground, like S112s or BC110s. Based on what I've read the Fischers are better climbers but I have zero experience.
Derrick



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Re: All purpose backcountry/bushwack ski

Post by connyro » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:47 pm

MikeK wrote:Hmm - strange. My 98s are positive pattern and outclimb all of my Madshus skis. The pattern is actually the exact same thing they use on those new skins they are selling.

The old S Bounds (Outtabounds and BCX skis) used to be negative patterned, as we had a pair. Not so great for climbing
Good call MikeK: The newer versions of the Fischer skis do seem to use a positive pattern. My mistake.

Snow type and climbing technique play a pretty important role in grip on the uphill too. I've heard good things about the S112s. The Rossi BC 110s seem OK but are not real light and have quite a bit of camber for a ski that wide.



MikeK

Re: All purpose backcountry/bushwack ski

Post by MikeK » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:46 pm

I'd imagine the S 112 would be every bit like the 98, just a little more turn focused. Probably climb a little better too from the extra width under foot. It really does make a difference I've notice i.e. that Fischer pattern isn't as great on a really narrow, double camber ski.

I agree - snow can really make a big difference. Some snow just doesn't jive with certain waxless pattern skis.

No idea about the Rossis (110s and 125s) but there are some floating around the Adirondacks as they were being sold at Garnet Hill. The guys that have them seem to report good things about them. I'm not sure they've tried the competition so I'm hesitant to take their word. I can at least give you some idea between Madshus and Fischer...



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Re: All purpose backcountry/bushwack ski

Post by lilcliffy » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:33 pm

Hi ddg,

I live in Stanley, NB. We are a fair bit higher in elevation and further away from the Coast- so the climate and snow conditions (over the years) is really quite different compared to where you are skiing.

That being said- I lived and skied in and around Saint John (we used to have a camp on the Kingston Peninsula)- for 10 years. My experience with backcountry skiing in a maritime climate at low elevation is this:
1) the typical snow is old, hard, icy, crusty, and slippery
2) the fresh snow conditions don't last very long. (I used to live within walking distance of Rockwood Park in SJ. There were many days that I raced home after school and literally ran to Rockwood Park to take advantage of a few hours of fresh soft snow!) (I was born in Quebec and learned to xcountry ski in that winter wonderland- so I had "powder memory")

My experience with skiing in general- but especially backcountry skiing- is that there are "all purpose" setups available. These "jack-of-all-trades" ski/binding/boot combinations tend to be masters of none.

From the onset I should make it clear that I am first and foremost a backcountry tourer (regardless of the terrain)- my personal preferences always puts touring efficiency over ease of turning. This doesn't stop me from skiing on steep terrain- it just forces me to continuously work on my technique so that I can turn my touring skis.

My advice is to start with a backcountry setup that suits your typical snow/terrain/cover conditions.

Snow. My experience with your climate is that the typical winter you are going to be most commonly skiing on hard, dense, icy, crusty, slippery snow.

Terrain. I have read through this discussion,and I am still a bit unclear as to the terrain you want to ski on. Are you wanting to backcountry-xcountry tour- or are you wanting to simply search for downhill runs (i.e. you mentioned "steep farm fields")?

Cover. You going to be skiing in the open- through fields, on woods roads/trails, open glades? Or truly going to be bushwhacking through the woods? If you are going to be making downhill turns on open cover- you don't need a short ski.

First things first- I really doubt that you will need a powder ski too often. And using a powder ski on hard and/or dense snow is murderously inefficient and ineffective. You will also need a monstrous boot/binding to control a powder ski on hardpack. (to my knowledge I am not aware of a very rigid, wide XCD ski that is designed to offer downhill stability on steep, hardpack snow. Anything that big, wide and rigid is too heavy for xcountry skiing)

I would start with something relatively narrow (i.e. 90mm shovel at the very widest) that is going to perform, and be reasonable to control on dense snow. (Once you find an ideal "everyday" setup- you can always buy a powder skis at a later date to take advantage of fresh snow events (or strange deep snow winters like you have had this winter)).

IMO/IME- the Fischer S-Bound 112, the Madshus Annum, and the Rossi BC110 are all XCD skis designed for deep powder snow (despite that- all three of these skis have significantly different design/performance). IMO/IME- the Voile Vector BC and Charger BC are designed to be big mountain alpine touring/telemark skis (they are fat, torsionally rigid and have rocker in both the tip and tail). I have tested the Vector BC- definitely not a XC ski- but man do they ever climb and turn! I have no experience with the Rossi BC 125- but I suspect that their intent is similar to the Vector BC?

Next step lower on the "totem-pole" are the mid-fat XCD touring skis (e.g. Madshus Epoch, Fischer S-Bound 98, Fischer S-Bound 88, Rossi BC 90). IMO these are still designed to be powder XCD skis- but offer perhaps better touring performance than their wider big brothers (I say "perhaps" better touring performance because I personally feel strongly that their fatter big brothers out-tour them in truly deep, soft snow. For example, my Annums will out perform my Epochs as a xcountry ski in truly deep snow).

Back to "relatively narrow". I am assuming that you want a XCD ski- not a xcountry ski? This is an important question. If you want decent and efficient downhill performance then you want a dedicated hybrid xcountry-telemark (i.e. "XCD") ski. The prime examples in this mid-width group are the Madshus Eon and the S-Bound 78 (IMO/IME- the S-78 offer better climbing/turning performance than the Eon).

Many people- both currently and traditionally- are using xcountry skis (i.e. narrow, double-cambered) as XCD skis. Those that are using traditional, long lengths are using skis with smooth, soft flexes- such as the Madshus Glittertind and Voss. Those that are using stiffer skis (e.g. Rossi BC65, 68, 70; Fischer E-series) are going to short lengths. There is much evidence that short, stiff, double-cambered skis can offer great downhill performance (just ask CIMA! 8-) )- but IMHO the short length is agonizingly inefficient as a touring ski.

So as far as the ski- I would stick to relatively narrow (i.e. the S-88 is on the fat side) for your snow and terrain. The length you want both depends on cover and whether you are going to be touring- or just climbing and turning.

Climbing. There is no question in my mind about these two facts:
1) double-cambered skis do not climb steep slopes efficiently
2) the wider the ski underfoot, the better the climbing performance
(there are also differences in camber, flex and traction patterns. For example: IME the S-Bounds climb more efficiently than the Madshus XCDs)

So if you are going to go relatively narrow, and you are going to climb steep slopes- make sure you get climbing skins!

Traction. If you are going to tour on hard and icy, crusty snow- kick and glide traction can be very challenging. Waxable skis can be grip-waxed and/or klistered for any snow temperature/condition- and will always outperform a waxless ski in a xcountry K&G context. Waxless skis can perform as good as klistered skis on warm wet snow.

Boots/bindings. I am still a bit unclear as to your skiing style/preference.

If you are going to be touring- then my advice is to go with reasonably light boots/bindings and continuously work on your xcountry and telemark technique.

If you are primarily going to be climbing and turning then you could easily go with heavier boots/bindings.

Many people don't seem to mind xcountry touring in heavy binding/boots.

I personally hate touring in heavy, rigid plastic (I particularly loved/hated my past experiences with AT). Just my personal preference.

I personally am a xcountry skier. My passion is backcountry xcountry touring over any terrain- including skiing in the mountains of NB and QC. My preference is for what I would call heavy-duty backcountry-xcountry boots/bindings (what 21st Century telemark skiers would call "light-duty" tele gear). I am currently on NNNBC on an everyday basis. I have used 75mm 3pc bindings in mountainous terrain.

Hope I am helping you! :roll:
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.



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