XC Ski For Women

[spopepro]

So my wife started on the spiders (189, she's 5'8", 160) and was very happy with that ski for a long time. It's very soft, which makes it stable and sticky with loose technique. That also makes it relatively easy to plow and turn for a ski of it's type. I knew it was slow, but she really liked the ski, so it was the right one.

Until we were touring Jura that is. She would watch me effortlessly glide away from her and now that we were skiing a total of 180km or so total (multiple days) she was less happy with the spiders. She wanted a little more glide, but did not want to give up the climbing grip or the metal edges. I put her on 195 transnordic 59s with ez skins cut somewhat aggressively (I think we ended up just behind the arch). She loves them. But the priority here is 50/50 tracks/off piste and only emergency turns. If steeper stuff is happening she takes her Koms.

You could try to trim the asnes skins. At least with the fischer skins the full length was super, super sticky--it drags all the time. If you already have the skis...

[JohnSKepler]

So my wife started on the spiders (189, she's 5'8", 160) and was very happy with that ski for a long time. It's very soft, which makes it stable and sticky with loose technique. That also makes it relatively easy to plow and turn for a ski of it's type. I knew it was slow, but she really liked the ski, so it was the right one.

Until we were touring Jura that is. She would watch me effortlessly glide away from her and now that we were skiing a total of 180km or so total (multiple days) she was less happy with the spiders. She wanted a little more glide, but did not want to give up the climbing grip or the metal edges. I put her on 195 transnordic 59s with ez skins cut somewhat aggressively (I think we ended up just behind the arch). She loves them. But the priority here is 50/50 tracks/off piste and only emergency turns. If steeper stuff is happening she takes her Koms.

You could try to trim the asnes skins. At least with the fischer skins the full length was super, super sticky--it drags all the time. If you already have the skis...

That's great info! Maybe we'll just stick with the Spiders for now. She's just SO SLOW. I think I could snowshoe faster - but not coming down! And she could be so much faster with less work just by improving her technique. I wonder if this is common for people with naturally very strong legs and muscle mass?

As for her skins, I have them trimmed to her heel right now. You're thinking that if I trim them up to the top of the camber arch that'll glide better? Certainly makes sense. I guess I could use some grip wax behind the skin as well? Last year, at the beginning of the winter with cold snow I waxed tip to tail in Polar grip wax. It worked great until it got really cold out, then stuck. Then it warmed up and... Eventually I just went to glide wax and skins. I like the glide wax and skins, I'm just wanting to save her the transitions. She likes it but doesn't love it like I do, but I really like her and like having her along!

[Manney]

Women typically under-pole, which limits speed. Maybe a few lessons from another woman (somebody who is a competitive xc skier) would help.

This whole grip wax nose to tail is the biggest bit of chat room stupidity going. It’s mostly done by ppl who don’t own an iron or are afraid to use it to lay down glide wax outside the grip zone.

Honestly, you’d be better off using liquid glide wax everywhere except for the grip zone. Because when any grip wax reaches its designed temperature, it sticks. Probably why they call it grip wax. Go figure…

Not directing this at you @JohnSKepler. Directing it towards the idiots who recommend it to ppl trying to get better performance out of their skis. The ppl who use grip wax all pretty much declare their stupidity from the start. They do so to a lay audience, which is even worse.

[JohnSKepler]

Women typically under-pole, which limits speed. Maybe a few lessons from another woman (somebody who is a competitive xc skier) would help.

This whole grip wax nose to tail is the biggest bit of chat room stupidity going. It’s mostly done by ppl who don’t own an iron or are afraid to use it to lay down glide wax outside the grip zone.

Honestly, you’d be better off using liquid glide wax everywhere except for the grip zone. Because when any grip wax reaches its designed temperature, it sticks. Probably why they call it grip wax. Go figure…

Under the right conditions it worked extremely well. Under the wrong conditions it failed extremely well! I now pick skis and wax based on both conditions and mission. If my mission keeps me in tracks or on a groomed course, I'll wax. If conditions allow, I'll use full length polar with temperature specific in the grip zone. (I do have an iron and I know how to use it.) If my mission is rolling hills in deeper snow I'll go with a scaled ski. I'll have skins along just in case. If I'm racing... well, I'm not going to win anyway and that won't be why I'm competing so, I'll probably do what I do for fun.

[Manney]

Not going to argue this with you. You either accept that companies like Swix (which has been doing this for about a hundred years) know what they’re doing or not.

If you don’t believe what they’re doing is effective, why stop at grip wax for the glide? Try honey… motor oil… mashed potatoes, rub your bases with linseed oil… There’s all manner of things that “could” work in the right conditions.

[mca80]

Not going to argue this with you. You either accept that companies like Swix (which has been doing this for about a hundred years) know what they’re doing or not.

If you don’t believe what they’re doing is effective, why stop at grip wax for the glide? Try honey… motor oil… mashed potatoes, rub your bases with linseed oil… There’s all manner of things that “could” work in the right conditions.

Swix designs products mostly for a groomed setup racing market. To blindly accept their setup for a situation other than that is ignorant.

I admit, I first tried the polar grip wax tips and tails and then cleaned and rewaxed with glide on some skis. And I thought it was better--for certain scenarios. It all depends what your conditions and objectives are. In a bunch of new snow, unbroken, in rolling northern WI / western UP terrain, you aren't gliding all that much while breaking new trail. And having to go up and down ad infinitum means extra grip is important. And this extra grip won't be accomplished merely by tuning the grip zone... maybe it can be done by world class skiers I dunno.

This year I will keep the Finnmarks glide waxed appropriately because I will use them in groomed tracks, or tracks I set. But my combat nato will probably be polar grip tips and tail because they will be for the purpose of setting tracks and out exploring rolling terrain at a leisurely pace. Of course if it's 10F or below the polar grip tip tail will not be ideal and quite slow, but hopefully I will be on a glide waxed ski and flying through some established tracks at that point.

[Manney]

Nobody blindly waxes. Even wax manufacturers encourage some judgment by specifying parameters for new and old snow.

An experienced waxer will consider more than just air temperature. Will the session be though heavily shaded areas (treed or north facing)? Will there be warm (rivers, lakes) or cold features (mountaintops) nearly to influence snow temperature? Will the temperature rise of fall over the session?

Grip waxing is the most technical. Glide wax is infinitely easier. Why? Because the temperature ranges of grip wax are frequently tighter than glide wax. This is one of the reasons why grip wax is a phenomenally poor substitute for glide wax.

In trail breaking, crust etc., glide wax does more than promote glide. It protects the structure of the ski. Properly ironed in, glide wax will exude from the base as the day goes on. After a long bushwhack, the bases will look hacked but a scrape and a brush put will restore them to “like new” condition because the glide wax has surrounded the sintered ptex hairs and prevented permanent damage to it.

Grip wax isn’t designed to do that… it doesn’t get into the structure. It adheres to the surface of it. So it’s scraped off pretty quickly during a bushwhack on portions of the ski that don’t “release”. The result is that the glide portion of the base that gets scarred. It can’t be restored without stone grinding.

You can do all kinds of things with glide wax to promote this even more… double ironing, for example, before scraping. Rilling too. You can’t do this with grip wax (it’s possible, but you’re risking your bases by hopelessly contaminating them with a narrow range grip wax).

[JohnSKepler]

Not going to argue this with you. You either accept that companies like Swix (which has been doing this for about a hundred years) know what they’re doing or not.

If you don’t believe what they’re doing is effective, why stop at grip wax for the glide? Try honey… motor oil… mashed potatoes, rub your bases with linseed oil… There’s all manner of things that “could” work in the right conditions.

In my 57 years of experience companies that last a long time don't last because they consistently offer the best product. Companies that last this long don't even exist for that reason. If I wanted to buy from a company that existed to make the best products I'd find a startup run by a couple of passionate dudes. Companies that last 'a hundred years' do so by buying companies started by passionate dudes and either shelving their product to eliminate the competition or incorporating it into their line after figuring out how to do it cheaper, or, just rebranding their own optimally cheap stuff with the brand name acquired from the passionate dudes.

There are some really passionate dudes on this forum. They may not own companies but they are as passionate about skiing as Swix executives are about making money. So, I go to them. And often, they do have formulas combining waxes from different companies in ways that work much better than the optimally cheap products from the big companies. Which isn't to say the products from big companies can't be good. They will just be optimized for lower production value over optimization for performance. The companies that last the longest are just very good at finding the break points between the two, buying up the competition, and mass marketing their stuff to large, easily-manipulated groups. Telemark skiers is NOT that group!

As a once wide-eyed, idealistic young man motivated primarily by trying to be honest and do a good job, it was difficult learning these lessons but this does explain much of what we encounter in the marketplace. The fact that it makes me sad or that I wish the world was a kinder place doesn't mean I'm going to carry a flawed model around in my head. Which mostly comes down to thinking that I'm going to look over my wife's Fisher Spiders, and if they are in good shape, ask her which boots and bindings she prefers and get it set up for what she likes! Just like she does when she's taking care of me. I do want to point out that if my previous posts have made her seem like a difficult person, she's not. She's awesome and I love her and love being around her even after 37 years. But in this area, and in cycling, she's difficult. If anyone has any insight into that, I'm all ears!

[Musk Ox]

This whole grip wax nose to tail is the biggest bit of chat room stupidity going. It’s mostly done by ppl who don’t own an iron or are afraid to use it to lay down glide wax outside the grip zone.

This is absolute nonsense, and you're completely wrong.

Maybe where you ski, with your conditions and your experience (I have no idea) there's no place for Swix Polar tip-to-tail.

Where I ski, in northern Norway, in certain circumstances, it works a treat. I do it because it actually works. That's all I can say about this. It works. I put it on my skis sometimes, when it's appropriate, and it works. There's only so many ways I can write this.

Manney you're passionate, and you clearly have some experience, and you've thought a lot about things, but you're extremely dogmatic, and your confidence is kind of contrary to my actual experience sometimes.

And finally if you were to tell my wife that women "typically underpole" (and I do not know what this means, but it sounds really bad) she would stick her Åsnes carbon adjustables up your arse.

[mca80]

she would stick her Åsnes carbon adjustables up your arse.

With deep snow baskets?